Cane molass sold as fertilizer in Europe

[Bushman]

Der wo that is exactly what my panela looks like. Group of us in the PNW order bulk shipments out of Columbia.

[LWTCS]

If you guys were running the molasses in this thread would you just add water? no sugar?

Yes.
Most commercial operators shoot for range of 15 to 20 brix

[needmorstuff]

I could actually just get this from my local feedstore where i get my flaked micronized corn.. about the same price as well.

https://www.burnhills.com/equestrian-c3 ... 5ltr-p1463" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[der wo]

Most molasses in Europe is beet molasses. If you don't see "cane molasses" on the label, don't buy it for making Rum.

[needmorstuff]

good info, my order from amazon just got updated and its coming sooner than expected so I'll just get the stuff from this thread. As a bonus I just got a voucher for amazon so bought another 28kg of it.

[LWTCS]

Should buy as many as you can that do not affect shipping costs. Outfit I was using would send two buckets for the same freight as a single.

[needmorstuff]

shipping is "free" as I'm Amazon prime.

[cob]

shipping is "free" as I'm Amazon prime.

is your "free" shipping going up $20 in june like in the states ?

[Bushman]

shipping is "free" as I'm Amazon prime.

is your "free" shipping going up $20 in june like in the states ?

?, haven't heard about raising shipping fee's. One of the reasons I joined prime.

[needmorstuff]

me neither, Jeff can sod off if he thinks I'm paying for prime AND shipping

[durty_dunderpants]

for the UK check the online feed stores. can get 50 litres 44,3% cane molly delivered for sixty quid which is at least comparable price with that amazon stuff. has made me some extremely decent rum cut 50-50 with sugar, and some interesting double distilled allmolly (taken off at 92%) that is still young.

still got lots of experimenting to do with the different methods of distilling and sugar or no. i kinda feel like the rum producers use 100% molly because it's what is cheapest and most available to them, even if they want to make a very light/neutral white rum. given the higher price of molly for us it feels more reasonable to cut with sugar in the wash (or neutral after) to get a really light rum than highly rectifying an allmolly wash but i've yet to really trial that in anger so i'll happily be told it's still a major difference!


i'm looking for a viable european source for panela, etc. to trial that too.. ? !

[Birrofilo]

i'm looking for a viable european source for panela, etc. to trial that too.. ? !

Whatever source of panela you find, if you distill it it's bound to be more expensive than using 100% molasses.
So if blackstrap molass is too expensive to obtain a light rum, tightly cut, then panela would make even less sense.

More or less, if you add cheap white sugar to blackstrap molass, you obtain panela again, but more cheaply than panela itself.

The order is:
from cane you obtain a cane syrup;
if you eliminate water from this syrup you obtain panela (sugar loaf). That's the whole sugar;
if, instead, you centrifugate the syrup you can divide it into two products: the sugar-rich part which you can crystallize and sell as "sugar", and the black bottom molass (blackstrap).
Basically, blackstrap molass is panela without the white sugar part.

By adding white sugar to blackstrap molass you obtain the rum that one would obtain by fermenting the original cane syrup.

[edited for ortography]

[Birrofilo]

shipping is "free" as I'm Amazon prime.

I am not "prime" but shipping it's free just the same.
That what I really, really like of Amazon. When shipping is taken into account, it becomes very competitive very fast, especially heavy items.

In Italy "prime" means fast delivery. Beyond a certain total cost shipping is always free (if the item is "shipped by Amazon").

[durty_dunderpants]

i was more interested in others successes i'd read with panela rum as giving different rum flavours than looking for a specifically light rum with it but this information is interesting thanks. if something can give a different result i'll happily pay for the quality or experience, but if i can do similar by varying white sugar content of the wash then great too. to be honest i've already resolved to make up some more extreme batches of rum and end up making different blends down the line, at least until i know what i want and how to get it!

[der wo]

I now have fermented a small amount. I want to make a bit molasses vinegar, but that's off topic. Surprisingly the molasses yield more than I thought.
960ml molasses (=1.35kg) made up to 4l (OG 1.098) I thought yields 6.8%. But now the FG was relatively low (1.033), so I have 8.5%. Exactly what the homedsitiller calc "Specific gravity of a sugar wash" calculates with 1.35kg x 43% (sugar content on the label) = 0.58kg made up to 4l.
This means, with 28kg (20l) it's possible to make 80l 8.9% wash.
Flavor is pleasant but a bit thin.

[needmorstuff]

I have 2 x 20l (5l mol 15l water) almost fermented out. I didn't take sg.

I will pot still it in a few days and report back my final yield.

good to hear the yield is good

[needmorstuff]

Out of curiosity how long did your ferment take? I have heat at 30c, mines been going for 4 days and I think it's done. I had thought gravity checks are useless but I have it now at 1.030 (temp adjusted)

[der wo]

It needed much longer. 2 weeks perhaps. I only pitched a very small amount yeast and didn't aerate. My goal was a weak slow ferment, which gets overwhelmed by vinegar bacteria.
I think your ferment is done. A normal ferment at 30°C is done after 4 days and 1.030 also sounds like done.

[needmorstuff]

thanks for the reply. I will check tomorrow to make sure gravity hasnt changed.

[Shine0n]

If it's bitter and not sweet it should be done.

[needmorstuff]

tastes like liquorice, not sweet

[needmorstuff]

just pot stilled my first run of this.. 10 litre of mol, 30l of water, fermented down to 1.03

ran it in my pot still after syphoning of the lees and got 38l - i stilled it until vapour temp was 98.2c, should have run it down further as I now have strip of 49% abv, 8 litres of it. Which more or less gives a 10% wash.. my calcs etc may be a bit off but its certainly a good yield and there doesnt seem much unfermentable in the mol.

used 14l of dunder straight into next batch

[der wo]

Yes. I would have collected at least 13l.

Now 10l molasses, 14l dunder, 16l water? If it doesn't start to ferment, the high SG of the added dunder could be the cause.

[needmorstuff]

yes, 16l of water.. its started to ferment... hopefully it will be fine.

I was going to go for 4 generations of this as I got 2 x 28kg mol.. but if i am taking 13l of low wines per 10l mol then it would exceed the capacity of my 50l boiler on the spirit run. As it stands the most I would be able to do is 3 generations (1x8l and 2x13l total 34l low wines) and that would leave me 10l of mol leftover.

or would it be best to go for 2 x spirit runs but with around 26l low wines..

[der wo]

All I can say is that my next Rum will be 5 strips, 2 middle runs and 1 spirit run. But it's new for me too.

I think it's important to strip down lower than you did, at least for a bold Rum.
Two spirit runs would give you the great benefit of reusing the feints of the first one into the second one.
Or make a mixture of double and triple distilled: Instead of a second spirit run, make with half of the low wines a middle run (from 30% to 60%abv for example). Then mix the low wines with the high wines for one spirit run.

[Birrofilo]

I now have fermented a small amount. I want to make a bit molasses vinegar, but that's off topic. Surprisingly the molasses yield more than I thought.
960ml molasses (=1.35kg) made up to 4l (OG 1.098) I thought yields 6.8%. But now the FG was relatively low (1.033), so I have 8.5%. Exactly what the homedsitiller calc "Specific gravity of a sugar wash" calculates with 1.35kg x 43% (sugar content on the label) = 0.58kg made up to 4l.
This means, with 28kg (20l) it's possible to make 80l 8.9% wash.
Flavor is pleasant but a bit thin.

Pardon me if my question is heresy: is it possible that the non-fermentable part of the molass is actually complex sugars, convertible by some enzymes?

Has anybody tried to use enzymes on sugarcane molasses? (I cannot believe nobody tried it but I find no references to enzymes in rum production, maybe it is something totally unworkable).

There's a lot of "matter" which is not sugar in that molass, and it would be interesting to turn that into alcohol and lower the cost (and the hassle of having to buy and trasport a 25Kg keg).

(I'm placing an order at a homebrewing shop and I need to know whether some enzymes would be nice to have).

EDIT: Oh yes I found this discussion: viewtopic.php?t=4202
Beano is alpha-amylase produced by Aspergillus niger, should work well with molasses, raising alcohol yield considerably, maybe at the expense of some flavour.
I ignorantly suppose that starting from blackstrap lack flavour is not going to be a problem, and adding another 40% sugars (let's say from 45% sugars to 63% convertible sugars) should make sense and lower the cost pretty well.

Any advice to the contrary, before I buy the stuff?

[der wo]

I didn't had success with enzymes and molasses. I don't think many of the unfermentables of molasses are dextrines or starch. In my "where does the banana flavor in Rum come from" thread you can read my opinion and the contrary opinion of thecroweater.

[Birrofilo]

@der wo

I re-read the thread entirely. I see that you and croweater differ on the (normal) starch content of molasses. Enzymes were never directly mentioned but, from what you say above here, I get that you actually made an attempt at enzyme use with molasses, with no substantial results, and all that unfermentable matter can be carbohydrates without being necessarily "convertible" sugars.

The same goes for Brettanomyces. All the fermentable sugars are eaten by Saccaromyces and nothing substantial is left behind for other organisms to reproduce vigorously.

I'll have to be content with the 46% fermentable matter

[der wo]

Yes, I added enzymes (SEBamyl GL and SEBstar HTL), but didn't follow strict their temperature protocol. I have bottles and they will get mold before I have emptied them, so why not use it for molasses too.
I don't think the unfermentables are carbonhydrates. On the canister is written:

Dry material: 72%
Azucares totales: 46%
Total sugar: 43.7%
Perhaps it means 43.7% is fermentable and 46% also contains unfermentable sugars?

Gross protein 4.5%
Gross ash 9.5%
And there is a list with minerals, which sum up to around 7% (one half of this is potassium).

46 + 4.5 + 9.5 + 7 = 67%
Not 72%. 5% are missing.

For the vinegar I didn't use enzymes. But my result shows, that at least the 43.7% were fermentable without adding enzymes. Perhaps 46% with enzymes.

[needmorstuff]

I'm on my 4th generation of 40ls of wash and it's not going below 1.05.. anyway to get it lower or should I just run it..

Each time I'm doing the same.. adding 14l of dunder 10l of molasses and 16l of water..

Each 5ime I run it to 98.8c and down to 10% and I get 8l of distillate.

I don't mind the yield, I have 24l of low wines so far for my spirit run.. 32 if I run this.