Learning About Fruit Wood for Aging

[OtisT]

Just in time Otis! I'm ready with my rum (hook style) and was asking myself how I'll age it with my cherry wood. I talked about it on this post in October if you remember.
I used fruit yeasts, and the white rum has fruity notes with a pleasant nose of red fruit and an apricot after taste.

I hesitate to nuke/vacuum or just just let the wood soak in?

In any event, once that virus everyone is talking about lets go off me and I'm able to leave the couch for more than 10 minutes...

Fred, It sucks you got the virus. I sure hope you get over it soon.

Regarding a soak vs vacuum/nuke, I’ll say that you have more control just letting it soak so less chance of over doing it. I’ve had enjoyable results with both, but think less wood over a longer time is better for the control and because I do feel that both the fruit wood and toast aspect of the wood seems to develop over time. I recall thinking there was good and noticeable change still happening 3-6 months for some fruit wood, so the trick for me is using a small enough portion of wood that allows me to let it develop over time w/o adding too much wood/toast. I have not done enough tests (and my memory and notes are not good enough) to say that there is big change after that 3-6 month time frame.

If you have enough spirits I suggest you do a jar now with the vacuum or nuke it so you have something to enjoy in a few days or weeks, and let the rest soak and test the results over time to stop when it has enough cherry and toast for you. This assumes you have a nice white cut of rum now and you like how your rum tastes already. If you don’t like it white today, you probably won’t like it in a few days after soaking some wood in it, vacuumed or not. If your rum has heads and/or tails to work out, no sense rushing it with a vacuum and take the long soak approach.

Keep in mind my experience with this stuff is limited and I am still working out how much wood to use, how deep to toast, how hot to toast, how long is enough and possibly how long is too long. Not a lot of info around about using fruitwood like there is on oak, and there are so many variables to consider. Learning about aging and polishing spirits is definitely a long game.

Otis

[Fredistiller]

Just in time Otis! I'm ready with my rum (hook style) and was asking myself how I'll age it with my cherry wood. I talked about it on this post in October if you remember.
I used fruit yeasts, and the white rum has fruity notes with a pleasant nose of red fruit and an apricot after taste.

I hesitate to nuke/vacuum or just just let the wood soak in?

In any event, once that virus everyone is talking about lets go off me and I'm able to leave the couch for more than 10 minutes...

Fred, It sucks you got the virus. I sure hope you get over it soon.

Regarding a soak vs vacuum/nuke, I’ll say that you have more control just letting it soak so less chance of over doing it. I’ve had enjoyable results with both, but think less wood over a longer time is better for the control and because I do feel that both the fruit wood and toast aspect of the wood seems to develop over time. I recall thinking there was good and noticeable change still happening 3-6 months for some fruit wood, so the trick for me is using a small enough portion of wood that allows me to let it develop over time w/o adding too much wood/toast. I have not done enough tests (and my memory and notes are not good enough) to say that there is big change after that 3-6 month time frame.

If you have enough spirits I suggest you do a jar now with the vacuum or nuke it so you have something to enjoy in a few days or weeks, and let the rest soak and test the results over time to stop when it has enough cherry and toast for you. This assumes you have a nice white cut of rum now and you like how your rum tastes already. If you don’t like it white today, you probably won’t like it in a few days after soaking some wood in it, vacuumed or not. If your rum has heads and/or tails to work out, no sense rushing it with a vacuum and take the long soak approach.

Keep in mind my experience with this stuff is limited and I am still working out how much wood to use, how deep to toast, how hot to toast, how long is enough and possibly how long is too long. Not a lot of info around about using fruitwood like there is on oak, and there are so many variables to consider. Learning about aging and polishing spirits is definitely a long game.

Otis

Thanks for your concern Otis, I feel better and should be okay within a few days.

As you said there is no sense of rushing it. I'll follow your advice and just soak over time at 55abv.
It is my first rum (as cane molasses are quite expensive here) and I only have 3.3L of final spirit at 63abv. I would rather stay on the safe side of the road and I'm quite reluctant of using cherry wood for all my product. I think I'll split in two mason jar and use 1/3 on cherry and use oak for 2/3. Do you already mix wood in the same jar? Like 1/4 fruit and 3/4 oak for example?

[OtisT]

I see no issue using oak and cherry at the same time in the same jar. That will cut your aging time by doing both at once vs one at a time.

Otis

[Fredistiller]

Actually, I meant aging at the same time but in two different jars. But if you see no issue using both in the same jar at the same time, I think I'll give it a go.

[OtisT]

Less is Better - 3 Year Update, Final Winners Are In.

Aged 3 years

Aged 3 years

Aged 3 years

Three years playing with Apple, Cherry and Plum with my panela rum have left me with two personal winners out of the 6 combinations I have tried. There are two combos that showed great potential and I think just need some tweaking. This is gonna wrap up the Less is Better test and I sure feel I learned a lot from doing it.

Two Winners
At three years, the raw apple in panela rum rocks! Same with the raw cherry in panela rum. Both have an incredible nose that is easily identifiable as the fruit wood used and both have a pleasant semi -sweet taste of their fruit. I’d be proud to serve these two to anyone. They have been consistently good for three years and they both really developed character in the last year.

Two with Great Potential
Both the toasted cherry and toasted apple have wonderful potential. The level of toast I used in this test was too hot and deep, and these things added too much toast that distracted from the wonderful fruit smell and taste. The toast did add a wonderful rich and sweet smell and taste, and I hope that taking the toast level and depth down a notch will allow those good rich flavors to shine with only a background of toast.

Plum was a disappointment. Even at 3 years, I never found a combination I fully liked.

My current ferment is a panela/molasses rum. I’m gonna age half on raw cherry and half on raw apple. The hard part will be waiting three years, but it will be damn worth it. I will also set aside two jars for a lighter toast test. Patience.

Otis

[MichiganCornhusker]

Very nice, thanks for the update! Beautiful color.

Cherry is the only wood, other than the oak, that I like adding to the bourbon jar. I definitely thing it brings nice things to the nose and palate.

I like my panela rum so much white that I’m not sure I can add any wood to it.

[Fredistiller]

Thanks for your work and sharing the conclusions! I'd like to taste your spirits!

My rum with fresh cherry wood is quite too cherry even after a year. It as some unpleasant aftertaste. Like you would chew on cherry pits. So yes the less the better is also my conclusion.

[Deplorable]

Otis, thanks for putting in the work on this. I was given some cherry wood (black cherry) from a fellow stiller at work, and am venturing down this hole with pure corn. I've already got 400ml on about 8 grams of raw in one jar that's a month old, and just put another jar down with 400ml on 10g of toasted.
I'm considering dropping in a .7X.7X5" raw stick into one of my jugs of 6 month old bourbon along with the white oak that's in it now.

[OtisT]

It appears that there may be such a thing as aging too long on raw Cherry wood.

I noticed a few months back that my 3+ year old jar of rum aging with raw Cherry became very cloudy. I thought maybe something got into the jar and did not give it further thought. Looking back through the pictures I think now that the cloudiness may have started sometime between year 2 and 3, and it really became obvious sometime after the 3 year mark. None of my other samples show any signs of cloudiness, including the toasted cherry sample. It’s hard to see the wood through that cloudy spirit.

Cloudy with raw Cherry after 3 years.

I recently came across an old bottle of whiskey that I had put a couple of small piece of raw Cherry into years back. It has also developed some sediment that clouds up the spirit and my bottles w/o cherry don’t have this issue. When I saw this, I put two and two together and am blaming the raw Cherry for this one.

Raw Cherry chunks in whiskey, sediment

The apple, plum, and even the toasted cherry are all still clear as a bell.

Note to self. Don’t age anything on raw Cherry longer than two years.

[NormandieStill]

My oak end-grain experiment has a lot of floaters in the jars, especially the raw wood ones. Might it also be a proof thing? (My experiment is with water).

[Deplorable]

Thats interesting. How does it taste? I've yet to sample any of my corn on cherry, its not even close to being ready to judge for flavor, but it sure smells good.

[VLAGAVULVIN]

Good topic, Otis. Thank you for it.

Half year back got from the garden of my father-in-law and sawed to big pieces an apple log and a cherry log and left these blocks for seasoning in the snow and rain. So, they began to be covered with mushrooms microflora. Now I've brought them into the house and decided to boil them, and also to dry them up a little in the oven. Having decided at the same time that seasoning is quite enough. And so I cooked them. And dried. But so far have not understood which of them was once Mrs. Appletree, and which one - Mademoiselle Cherry. So, hafta make a couple of spirit infusions now to clear it up, lol.

[OtisT]

*** Use Even Less Fruitwood ***

I continue to learn with each test. I made a few small batch of my favorite rum last year to age on raw Apple and Cherry. I filled a few jars with rum and added what I hoped would be a small enough amounts of wood by volume to give the rum a subtle fruitwood presence. Apparently I still used too much for anything subtle. After 11 months aging I found these rums to smell and taste smooth and wonderful, but the impact of the wood is far from subtle. Each has a very strong smell and taste of cherry/apple. Even mixed with coke, I can still smell/taste the fruit.

The amount of wood I used here was:
12 g Cherry wood / liter of rum.
15 g Apple wood / liter of rum.

Rum aged 11 months on raw Cherry and raw Apple

Stay tuned for more about less.... Otis

[malt_lover]

That’s helpful Otis, with the weight. It’s my experience that even in same fruit family, woods can have very different flavors.

[OtisT]

This is a new test using even less wood.

I’m starting with a batch of panela/molasses rum aged one year in two different 1 gal Badmo style barrels. One barrel is American White Oak and the other is Oregon Oak. I proofed it down to 45% and split into thirds to add Apple/Cherry/NA wood.
.

Oregon Oak

Cherry: 3g in 1.25 liters = 2.4 g/l
Apple: 8g in 1.25 liters = 6.4 g/l
.
.

American White Oak

Cherry: 2g in .6 liters = 3.3 g/l
Apple: 4g in .6 liters = 6.6 g/l


Otis

[Thedevilswater]

Anyone here use blueberry wood? I have a dead tree I want to try.

I am going to try to find out if there is any poison if I cannot I will give it a try.

[bilgriss]

I started aging an apple brandy on with a couple toasted and lightly charred pear this past winter. It'll be a while, but I'll try to remember to report back here when I have some observations.

[OtisT]

Thats interesting. How does it taste? I've yet to sample any of my corn on cherry, its not even close to being ready to judge for flavor, but it sure smells good.

Hey Deplorable. How did your corn on cherry turn out? Would love to hear about the details.

[Deplorable]

Thats interesting. How does it taste? I've yet to sample any of my corn on cherry, its not even close to being ready to judge for flavor, but it sure smells good.

Hey Deplorable. How did your corn on cherry turn out? Would love to hear about the details.

It turned out really good actually. Very distinct flavor, easy to identify as cherry. I kept a quart and blended the rest into my 5 gallon barrel when I emptied it, which I regret. The flavor got lost in the blend (or at least I cant pick it out). I've got a few dozen fingers cut about .6" square and 5" long that I intend to use to make other stuff with.

[Biffy]

This is a phenomenal string. Wow. Have to go through it fully.

Thanks for all your hard work.

Peace
Biffy

[Doc_T]

This post is very interesting to me. My other hobby (maybe I have too many) is smoking meats so I always have some sort of wood handy. Currently I have apple, cherry, mesquite, blocks of old whiskey barrels (I would assume they're oak), and hickory. I added some apple, cherry, and the old whiskey barrels to a few different jars of SF likker. I'd say I'm most surprised by the mesquite and fruit results - this wood when used for smoking is easily the strongest of all and sometimes overpowering. Cherry and apple on the otherhand are so light. I'm getting antsy to try the cherry jar.

[Deplorable]

This post is very interesting to me. My other hobby (maybe I have too many) is smoking meats so I always have some sort of wood handy. Currently I have apple, cherry, mesquite, blocks of old whiskey barrels (I would assume they're oak), and hickory. I added some apple, cherry, and the old whiskey barrels to a few different jars of SF likker. I'd say I'm most surprised by the mesquite and fruit results - this wood when used for smoking is easily the strongest of all and sometimes overpowering. Cherry and apple on the otherhand are so light. I'm getting antsy to try the cherry jar.

I find both raw and toasted cherry to be delightful. I have yet to get my hands on some seasoned apple heart wood.

[Tōtōchtin]

I searched this thread then googled for lime wood and found no matches for aging with lime wood. I figured a tree as popular as a lime would have had a comment good or bad. I just discovered some branches that have to have been cut down 3-4 years ago.
Tōtō

[OtisT]

This post is very interesting to me. My other hobby (maybe I have too many) is smoking meats so I always have some sort of wood handy. Currently I have apple, cherry, mesquite, blocks of old whiskey barrels (I would assume they're oak), and hickory. I added some apple, cherry, and the old whiskey barrels to a few different jars of SF likker. I'd say I'm most surprised by the mesquite and fruit results - this wood when used for smoking is easily the strongest of all and sometimes overpowering. Cherry and apple on the otherhand are so light. I'm getting antsy to try the cherry jar.

Hi Doc_T. What is SF likker?

I find your notes about aging on mesquite interesting. I tried aging some spirits on mesquite once and I don’t recall getting much in the way of smell or taste from it. How did you prep the wood? raw or toasted? Temp, time, etc. How much wood/volume and how long? Base spirit? (Not sure off hand what SF is?)

I would love to hear any details from you on what you try and how they turn out, especially more details on the mesquite and hickory.

[OtisT]

I have yet to get my hands on some seasoned apple heart wood.

We definitely have to fix this.

[OtisT]

I searched this thread then googled for lime wood and found no matches for aging with lime wood. I figured a tree as popular as a lime would have had a comment good or bad. I just discovered some branches that have to have been cut down 3-4 years ago.
Tōtō

Hi Toto. I’ve not tried nor read about any results from aging spirits on any type of citrus wood. Sounds like something we need to try. I’ll add it to my long list of to-dos. Not much citrus growing where I live, but I do have some friends in Southern California who may be able to hook me up with some wood. When you try it, please post your details.

I did recently start another thread to test Aging on Nut Woods. So far, my testing has started with Hazlenut and Pecan wood.

Nut Wood Aging Post: viewtopic.php?t=90536

[Tōtōchtin]

I was surprised that no info on Google for lime wood. I was thinking about adding it to some alcohol de caña I can get here. It's 96% for 2 bucks a liter so it won't be much of a loss. If it helps to make something better I'll try it with some rum.
Tōtō

[Doc_T]

Hi Doc_T. What is SF likker?

I find your notes about aging on mesquite interesting. I tried aging some spirits on mesquite once and I don’t recall getting much in the way of smell or taste from it. How did you prep the wood? raw or toasted? Temp, time, etc. How much wood/volume and how long? Base spirit? (Not sure off hand what SF is?)

I would love to hear any details from you on what you try and how they turn out, especially more details on the mesquite and hickory.

Hey Otis, SF is just sweet feed. I'm new to this hobby so much of what I'm trying are things I've learned here...the other things came from trying a little bit of this and a little bit of that. I probably wasn't clear in my post - I haven't put mesquite in any jars. I was suprised that mesquite in your original tests didn't give much flavor. My experience when smoking meats gives the direct opposite results you had. Fruit woods are the lightest smoke flavors, while oak, hickory and mesquite are the strongest (in that order). When smoking meat mesquite is a very strong, oily wood.

Made 2 jars of apple, 1 toasted the other raw. Same for apple. I didn't take notice of time/temp of toasting - just used my experience from smoking different meats. I toasted with a torch until the wood was fragrant, but before there were any off putting scents or colors.

I have a bit of pecan wood that I'd like to try as well. I'm open to any suggestions from the pros.

[rpsharman]

Hi -

Have you figured out the trick with toasting the cherry? Have you done cherry only aging, or do you always use it as a finish? I just got hold of some cherry, and am curious to try it out. I have started a brand new batch, so have 6 x 1.25L of appx 60 ABV ready for experimenting. I have some cherry, some pear, some crabapple, and of course some AWO.

Anything you learned as a definite what not to do would be appreciated.

Cheers,

Robert

I really like cherry and have been working with it for a couple years now, If you get it right it can be surprisingly good. I've tried the two different cherry woods - Black cherry and sweet. I like the black cherry much better. I always toast now, tried un-toasted and toasted side by side and I think the toasted wood gives a better taste with a more mature cherry essence. The problem is getting it right, which I'm finding out is an art. I've been putting the bulk of my AG spirit run on oak with a quart or two set aside for cherry. This past February I put about a gallon of my run on Oak and did a quart of cherry like I've been doing. Just before a camping trip with my son in late June I found this quart of cherry, cut it to 41% and went to the mountains. Turns out it was the best I've ever made. I think what separated this quart from the rest was the toast.... I got it just right but I always focused on the oak and didn't take detailed enough notes on this cherry. You mentioned that you found that a little wood goes a long way, that's what I found as well. I get better results with less wood over more time. My first attempt at reproducing the February quart turned out like Cherry wood tea. I completely blown it out buy trying to rush the process, way too much wood. I also toned back the char and now just do a light char with the torch. I'm solely on the cherry train now, everything I make gets cherry now.... I'm just trying everything to figure out what I did back in Feb. I have 2-6 gallon pales of AG percolating now that I'll strip and spirit run but this time I'm separating into individual quarts that I'm going to try different toast levels. Hopefully, with better notes, I'll figure out what I did that made that one quart turn out so well.

Thanks for this thread, excellent info here for anyone wanting to try something different.

[Moon_Moon]

A latecomer to this thread.

Love ur work Otis. Very detailed and systematic. Can only hope my scatterbrained self can achieve half of how u did it someday.

I am also doing some experiments with cherry. Gonna be done with my UJSSM soon and gonna test it on that so maybe I can get something as good as you did out of it. So far I tried to put it into a fig brandy I made and got decent results(tasted good to me) although my palate knowledge or discernment is not anywhere close to what you got.

I've read about oaking and how it is always done at 60% ABV+, but my first haphazard experiment was with cognac(technically not cause of the brand) and at that time I did it with the cognac already proofed down to 42% ABV. I was told it was gonna taste terrible but 9 months in it is not undrinkable let's say (compared to Remy Martin and Martel its better according to me and my friends).

Have you ever tried aging with cherry at 40% ish ABV or do you reckon the same applies to all woods as it does to oak? Or is it just that strong alcohol does faster flavor extraction and that's it?

However, reading about your experiments in hindsight I should not have toasted all of the cherry. My toasting process was the same as the oak in an oven at 200 degC at 2h and I definitely put way too much cherry into 500mL XD.