Wtf happened

[CuWhistle]

I agree, but I've never felt I've removed too much. Do you keep and drink foreshots and early heads? You may have the knowledge and ability and equipment to extract every last bit of ethanol out of everything, but most novices don't. I don't keep early heads or go too far into the tails and when I was participating in this forum 6 years ago, it was always emphasized that the hobbyist should aim for quality, not quantity. Getting over that "must keep everything" mentality was something that newbies had to learn. Has it changed since Rad left?

I know all too well about "no methanol in sugar wash". My point is about efficiency and the ability to not double distill crap by simply making a planned extraction on the strips. It makes good sense to me. If you like watching liquid drip out of a pipe for more time than is necessary, you can continue to do so. I'd rather burn my gas and run my water pump extracting useful stuff that is easy.

You have to realise here, that sometimes the novice you are helping has a 3 gallon Chinese pot still and not a 4", 8 viewing glass, slant plated, reflux, fractioning, shiny big thing.

[NZChris]

You have to realise here, that sometimes the novice you are helping has a 3 gallon Chinese pot still and not a 4", 8 viewing glass, slant plated, reflux, fractioning, shiny big thing.

I know that and I think your recommended 250ml of foreshot per 25l is excessive and unnecessary for most products and it's the first time I've seen such a large amount suggested on this forum.

[CuWhistle]

As I said, it isn't all "foreshot" by definition of lower alcohols. There is certainly ethanol in there as early heads but it is about efficiency and quality over quantity. How much do you remove straight up on a strip run? How much do you put back into the spirit run only to take it off again as a part of the head cut?

If you take absolutely nothing off the strip you are double working stuff you know is no good. This is inefficient use of energy and time. At 1% boiler charge on a strip I remove stuff that I know is no good for anything drinkable. It saves time and money.

The numbers: 25000 ml charge. Remove 1% = 250 ml. My usual strip recovery volume even after this removal = 5000 - 6000 ml. Removal rate is 1% boiler charge and 4.2 - 5% of kept strip volume. Usual heads ratio up to 20 - 30 %. Nothing too drastic in my opinion. Even if I keep and collect just this amount and put it through a column there would be no point in re-running it. Just my opinion and the way I do it for my own reasons.

[NZChris]

As I said, it isn't all "foreshot" by definition of lower alcohols. There is certainly ethanol in there as early heads but it is about efficiency and quality over quantity. How much do you remove straight up on a strip run?

For a sugar wash neutral, 150ml. For some fruit washes, taking that much is a mistake because needed flavor VOCs come over early.

How much do you put back into the spirit run only to take it off again as a part of the head cut?

Never done it, never seen it recommended, wouldn't take advice from anyone who suggested it.

If you take absolutely nothing off the strip you are double working stuff you know is no good. This is inefficient use of energy and time.

Which is a reason I don't recommend taking nothing off.

At 1% boiler charge on a strip I remove stuff that I know is no good for anything drinkable. It saves time and money.

Taking an extra large foreshot may save a wee bit of time and money, but it also removes good alcohol and for some products, desirable flavors. Should a newbie with a small still and an empty cellar, take more foreshot than is often recommended on this forum just to save a few minutes and pennies?

[Frosty36]

So to follow up on the strip run...once I make a few of those and collect enough for a spirit run, I should dilute it down to 40%/80 proof correct? I get that too high alcohol content could be problematic.

With the tails or feints (still trying to grasp all the terms, correct me if needed) at what abv would you just stop collecting? I've seen 30% and 20%.

[still_stirrin]

With the tails or feints (still trying to grasp all the terms, correct me if needed) at what abv would you just stop collecting? I've seen 30% and 20%.

Frosty,

Feints = heads + tails from your “cuts”.

The feints contain (some) good alcohol and flavor congeners all mixed up. Collecting and then refluxing feints in a separate run will (theoretically) allow you to somewhat separate the remaining goodness from the stinky and solventy crap.

Tails typically contain the “heavy” constituents, those with a higher boiling point such as the oils in the low wines. These often contain much of the grain flavor contributions from an all grain mash. Sugar washes have a (relatively) clean backend however, so don’t add much flavor...more of the “sweet water” character.

But for fruit ferments, often the fruitiness is hidden in the front end, so making the late heads to hearts cut tricky. That is, you’ll want to capture the fruit flavors, yet avoid the solventy quality of the higher (lighter) alcohols and ketones. These congeners (flavor contributers) have lower boiling point and when separated/refluxed will come over earlier.

Is this helping you to better understand the terms and context of their usage? I hope so.
ss

[Frosty36]

Definitely!! There's so many that it all gets overwhelming at times but thank you.

Just curious though, the cut off point that most stop at? What abv?

[still_stirrin]

...Just curious though, the cut off point that most stop at? What abv?

To quote a wise sage who used to be here, “how long is a piece of string”?

[CuWhistle]

Frosty, once again I tend to go to the side of efficiency over quantity. Some will run strips right down to 10%. I currently rarely go below 20%, which is further than I used to. Again, it really depends on what you've fermented and personal choice. There are no rules as such.

There are 2 lines of thought regarding feints. Some refer to it as tails only while others use the term for heads and tails combined. As if it wasn't confusing enough.

NZChris, I didn't mean adding additional heads and foreshots. I just meant leaving it in after stripping only to re-distil it in the spirit run and then cut it as heads anyway. I've never used fruit so, if all these important flavours are early does that mean you have to include early heads in your cuts?

Out of "total collected" recently, I've kept only about 45% of output when considered in terms of theoretical 100% ABV. Another 35% is presently stored as feints (heads and tails) yet to be run as an all feints after sitting on bicarb. The remaining 20% is already rejected from stripping. After I run the feints these "keepers" and "rejects" numbers will change and the 35% will be gone. I imagine it will end up close to 50/50.

If I were to consider it in terms of "total fermented", the figure for "keepers" would be even lower since I drop some down the drain as unrecovered in the backset. I will point out that this is using a pot still and I consider it to be what to expect when making selective quality cuts.

One of the videos I watched for the operation of the T500 simply said to toss the first 200 ml and drink the rest.

[NZChris]

Just curious though, the cut off point that most stop at? What abv?

Many stop stripping at an abv at the spout and so did I for many years, but now I realise that what is important is the abv of the low wines. For a sugar wash neutral, I strip into one container until the abv in the container reaches 40%, or until my nose tells me it's unwise to continue, (that's never happened). For flavored products I strip to much lower abvs.

[SaltyStaves]

So to follow up on the strip run...once I make a few of those and collect enough for a spirit run, I should dilute it down to 40%/80 proof correct?

Make a few? Are you planning on sticking to your undersized fermenter? You can certainly do that, but having to ferment, then strip, then ferment then.... will get old real fast.

[NZChris]

NZChris, I didn't mean adding additional heads and foreshots. I just meant leaving it in after stripping only to re-distil it in the spirit run and then cut it as heads anyway. I've never used fruit so, if all these important flavours are early does that mean you have to include early heads in your cuts?

I use the foreshot to get rid of the nastiest of the ethyl acetate from the low wines before the spirit run, if I need to. Heads components don't come over in steps, they come over throughout the run, starting high and tapering off, so emoving a portion from the low wines lowers their % in the condensate throughout the entire spirit run, not just in the heads cut.
For some fruit, like apples, the ethyl acetate is part of the flavor profile, so if you do a ruthless foreshot or heads cut, you might find yourself back here asking why you didn't get the flavor you were expecting.

I don't use the term 'early heads' in my shed. I carefully choose a blend that I like out of the jars I have. What makes the cut is hearts, what doesn't is heads and tails and is combined and put into the feints collection, sometimes with a used oak stave.

[CuWhistle]

I've just read der wo's explanations and reasoning for leaving foreshots in the strips (remove nearly nothing) and going deep into tails. I may have been making bad decisions. I've never been unhappy with my product but seems there always something to learn here.

In this thread, der wo made posts on 24 May 2016 (page 13). It clearly explains the benefits of leaving strips with most of the higher ABV foreshots in and also going further into tails.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=39617&start=360

I will have to reconsider my decisions based on economy. Trouble is my water is driven by electric pumps. I may have to invest in a small 12 V pump. I have batteries and solar panels.

Edit: Ahhh!!! but read on and Jimbo disagrees. We then find that der wo let's his product breath to air losing 20%. Doh!!!!

[Frosty36]

Make a few? Are you planning on sticking to your undersized fermenter? You can certainly do that, but having to ferment, then strip, then ferment then.... will get old real fast.

Yea, it is alot of hassle but it will give me a chance to get better at A) mashing, B) running my still effectively C) posting more of my million questions on here

Isnt that what most do....strip a few times until you have a spirit run? I know most have bigger fermenters and that probably cuts time in half.

[Frosty36]

I
For some fruit, like apples, the ethyl acetate is part of the flavor profile, so if you do a ruthless foreshot or heads cut, you might find yourself back here asking why you didn't get the flavor you were expecting.

I don't use the term 'early heads' in my shed. I carefully choose a blend that I like out of the jars I have. What makes the cut is hearts, what doesn't is heads and tails and is combined and put into the feints collection, sometimes with a used oak stave.

I had a tendency to do a little extra in the heads cut so that is probably what started this whole thread....but its turned into more tips and info than I could've hoped for!!

[SaltyStaves]

Isnt that what most do....strip a few times until you have a spirit run?

Yes, but most people want to get that over and done with in a day. Not turn it into a multi-week marathon.

I know most have bigger fermenters and that probably cuts time in half.

Do you have a permanent setup? At the very minimum, you will have to rinse the collection vessels and the still, dump the backset and setup the fermenter again. You'll have to repeat that once a week for three weeks before you even get to the spirit run (that is if your fermentations all go well). Cuts the time in half? Nope. Significantly more time saved than that.

If you don't have a permanent setup, then add even more time to the above.

[NZChris]

Isnt that what most do....strip a few times until you have a spirit run? I know most have bigger fermenters and that probably cuts time in half.

When I did my research, (pre-internet), I learned that my fermenter had to hold at least three still charges worth of wash, so I obtained a fermenter that could hold wash for four charges. It is still my most used fermenter. It doesn't take much more time and effort to put down a ferment in that than it takes to put down a ferment in a pail. One ferment, and one weekend of hard out distilling can put a decent amount of likker into my aging cellar.

[The Baker]

A single ferment does not have to be contained in a single vessel.
I have used eight x 20 litre square containers for a single ferment, with an upside-down bucket in the middle on which rests a water container.
A hole drilled in the cap of each container is a firm fit for a plastic tube the end of which rests in the water, held in place with say a clothes peg and there is the air lock.

Geoff

[CuWhistle]

And visa versa. I only have a small mashing capability so I have just done 4 small AG mashes over a 2 day period and consolidated into 1 larger fermenter.

[Frosty36]

This is by no means my permanent setup. It's basically the best I can do for right now given the space I have. My fermenter can hold 7 gallons I believe, so I'm thinking along with Salty and that I want to save time. I think from here on I'll just use the entire capacity (minus space for foaming up) and run it throughout the day until I get what I want. Going into this as a newbie I had the mentality that you make the amount of mash that you want to run and you would lose a little of it in cuts. I had no idea about stripping it and making a greater quantity of mash compared to the still size. I'm all about quality over quantity....and being efficient with time. Learning learning and learning some more.

Edit: Maybe dumb question....do small distilleries or even big ones have to go through the stripping runs etc or are there ways they avoid this?

[NZChris]

A large fermenter doesn't take up a lot more floor space than a fermenter a quarter of it's volume.

Going into this as a newbie, I knew that I needed at least three strips for a spirit run, so I obtained a fermenter and a mash tun that held enough for four strips.

Commercial distilleries use whatever they think is best for what they make. Some use a continuous stripping column. If I like a particular product, I gather as much information as I can from the best sources I can find, then emulate it to the best of my abilities, sometimes building new stuff or making modifications.

[Frosty36]

Thanks Chris. I wish I had known all of this before hand, but we make due. The still was a gift and I just kinda went from there. Eventually, I'll progress into a bigger setup when space allows it. I like the idea of trying to copy something i like. If you don't mind me asking have you had any success with any popular brands? (feel free to say shut up)

[NZChris]

Not with the same actual brand, but I have made some very good liquors by copying their methods. Sometimes forum advice is quite different to what is/was done commercially, so I use the forum to get ideas, then go stalking the web, including company websites, to create a method to try.

I have had a success with finding rare or unusual bottles and making my best effort at replicating the contents. It is very satisfying when I'm successful at making something really nice, even though it might not exactly replicate the original.