I need advice for the first fermentation.

[shadylane]

Hi shadylane

I would appreciate it if you could review the content above and share your thoughts. I also have a few questions to ask:

1. Based on what I’ve read in forums, if I raise the temperature to 175°F after mashing and then cool it down with a chiller, will that prevent bad odors and the growth of undesirable elements?
2. Would it be better if I don’t ferment on the grain, or would that result in a drop in the quality of the final product?
3. Do you have any better suggestions to avoid this issue in the future?

1. A wort chiller and raising the temp is a good idea, since your using enzymes and don't have to worry about denaturing malt.
2. Fermenting off the grain requires the extra step of lautering the mash and will slightly lower the yield due to sugar left on the spent grain. If you were making whiskey the extra step would be worth it.
3. Often the worst smelling ferment makes the best liquor.

[Roger1]

Hi shadylane

I would appreciate it if you could review the content above and share your thoughts. I also have a few questions to ask:

1. Based on what I’ve read in forums, if I raise the temperature to 175°F after mashing and then cool it down with a chiller, will that prevent bad odors and the growth of undesirable elements?
2. Would it be better if I don’t ferment on the grain, or would that result in a drop in the quality of the final product?
3. Do you have any better suggestions to avoid this issue in the future?

1. A wort chiller and raising the temp is a good idea, since your using enzymes and don't have to worry about denaturing malt.
2. Fermenting off the grain requires the extra step of lautering the mash and will slightly lower the yield due to sugar left on the spent grain. If you were making whiskey the extra step would be worth it.
3. Often the worst smelling ferment makes the best liquor.

Thanks shadylane

I’m feeling hopeful that a good vodka will come out of this batch.

[greggn]

2. Fermenting off the grain requires the extra step of lautering the mash

"Requires" ?!? Lautering should not be required if you hit your target OG after straining.

[SW_Shiner]

2. Fermenting off the grain requires the extra step of lautering the mash

"Requires" ?!? Lautering should not be required if you hit your target OG after straining.

If fermenting off grain then lautering is required. Have you confused lautering with sparging?

[shadylane]

I’m feeling hopeful that a good vodka will come out of this batch.

1st attempt at making vodka, I'd be happy with almost good.
How is the liquid going to be removed from the spent grain?
What still are you going to use?

[Roger1]

I’m feeling hopeful that a good vodka will come out of this batch.

1st attempt at making vodka, I'd be happy with almost good.
How is the liquid going to be removed from the spent grain?
What still are you going to use?

Fermenting grains has been somewhat challenging for me, but I have no trouble fermenting fruits

Some time ago, while reading through forum, I came across a helpful post where they had used geotextile fabric and were very satisfied with it. Coincidentally, I had some geotextile fabric in my workshop, so I prepared some of it for filtering the grain mash.

[shadylane]

That will work, the fabric is durable and can take a lot of abuse while squeezing out the liquid.

[Roger1]

That will work, the fabric is durable and can take a lot of abuse while squeezing out the liquid.

That's a great idea! I've been using various materials for filtering fermented fruits for years, but it never crossed my mind to use geotextile fabric.

[greggn]

If fermenting off grain then lautering is required. Have you confused lautering with sparging?

Yes, I did. Apologies to Shadylane and thanks, SWS.

[Roger1]

That will work, the fabric is durable and can take a lot of abuse while squeezing out the liquid.

Hi friends,

Unfortunately, fermentation in both barrels has stopped, and the hydrometer readings haven't changed over the past three days. Barrel one remains at 1030, and barrel two is still at 1050. I added 40 grams of hydrated bread yeast to the first barrel, and there are some weak signs of fermentation. For the second barrel, which has a hydrometer reading of 1050, I separated about 1 liter and added some turbo yeast for testing, but no signs of fermentation were observed.

Do you think the fermentation halt could be due to **lactic contamination**? Is it possible to save them, or should I discard them?

[Roger1]

Barrel one has a slight smell of alcohol along with a cheesy odor. Barrel two smells like vinegar and cheese, with no trace of an alcoholic scent.

[shadylane]

I think your right about the lacto infection. I'd distill the first barrel to since there's alcohol in it.
What are you using to measure the gravity, is it a hydrometer or a refractometer?

[Roger1]

I think your right about the lacto infection. I'd distill the first barrel to since there's alcohol in it.
What are you using to measure the gravity, is it a hydrometer or a refractometer?

Hydrometer

[Roger1]

I will wait until this time tomorrow. If the hydrometer reading changes, that's good; otherwise, I will filter the first barrel and distill it.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

What's the Ph reading in each barrel? If the ph drops too low the yeast go dormant and will stall the fermentation.
If you can get hold of crushed oyster shells like is fed to chickens, you can put afew cups in each barrel. Shells will bring the Ph back up to the happy range for yeast. If the Ph is fine the shells will just sit there and do nothing, they don't change the flavor any either and the shells can be used again until the disappear.
The last 40 years I've been using shells in every thing, even wines and haven't had a ph crash but once when I did a sugar wash and didn't use shells.
Good luck, Roger

[Roger1]

What's the Ph reading in each barrel? If the ph drops too low the yeast go dormant and will stall the fermentation.
If you can get hold of crushed oyster shells like is fed to chickens, you can put afew cups in each barrel. Shells will bring the Ph back up to the happy range for yeast. If the Ph is fine the shells will just sit there and do nothing, they don't change the flavor any either and the shells can be used again until the disappear.
The last 40 years I've been using shells in every thing, even wines and haven't had a ph crash but once when I did a sugar wash and didn't use shells.
Good luck, Roger

Thanks,
It seems like the problem is exactly what you mentioned. The pH of the first barrel is 2.7, and the second barrel is 2.3. I don't have oyster shells, and since we're on holiday, I'll see what alternatives I can find to raise the pH.

[shadylane]

You could use calcium hydroxide, also known as slaked lime.
Mix it with water to make a slurry and stir it into the mash a little at a time until the pH rises to above 4.

[Roger1]

You could use calcium hydroxide, also known as slaked lime.
Mix it with water to make a slurry and stir it into the mash a little at a time until the pH rises to above 4.

I searched and found it nearby; I'll get it tomorrow.

[shadylane]

It can be difficult to restart a fermentation that's failed due to low pH caused by a bacterial infection.
Maybe next time cook the crushed grain at a higher temp and use a wort chiller.
I use SEBstar-HTL Alpha Amylase Enzyme with a recommended Dosage of 2.0 – 2.5 ml per 4.5 kg / 10 lbs
The temperature range is 80-90 C but it will still work at a lower temp, just slower.
The best pH is between 5.6 – 6.5, which lucky for us just happens to be the pH of crushed grain and water.
The high temp of 80-90c does an excellent job of pasteurizing the mash and I don't have any problems with infections.
A lower temp of say 70-75C could be used, but it needs to be held for long enough for conversion and pasteurization.
Once the mashing process has converted starch to dextrin use the wortchiller to drop the temp for Gluco.
Once the gluco has been added, quickly chill the mash to yeast pitching temp.
The gluco will work at fermentation temp, just slower. It will be converting dextrin to simple sugar as the yeast is consuming the sugar, the mash pH during fermentation will drop down to the requirements of the gluco enzyme.

[shadylane]

If I were using alpha enzymes other than HTL that would be denatured by high temps, a wortchiller would be very useful.
I'd use the low temp alpha twice, 1st use some sacrificially during cooking to thin the mash, then chill the mash to the temp recommended by the enzymes manufacturer and add the 2nd dose of alpha.

[Pure Old Possum Piss]

Shady just gave you some good advise!
I prefer to keep my ferments between 5.0 and 6.0
and the shells will usually do it. But everyone's different. That's what's nice about making likker.

[Roger1]

It can be difficult to restart a fermentation that's failed due to low pH caused by a bacterial infection.
Maybe next time cook the crushed grain at a higher temp and use a wort chiller.
I use SEBstar-HTL Alpha Amylase Enzyme with a recommended Dosage of 2.0 – 2.5 ml per 4.5 kg / 10 lbs
The temperature range is 80-90 C but it will still work at a lower temp, just slower.
The best pH is between 5.6 – 6.5, which lucky for us just happens to be the pH of crushed grain and water.
The high temp of 80-90c does an excellent job of pasteurizing the mash and I don't have any problems with infections.
A lower temp of say 70-75C could be used, but it needs to be held for long enough for conversion and pasteurization.
Once the mashing process has converted starch to dextrin use the wortchiller to drop the temp for Gluco.
Once the gluco has been added, quickly chill the mash to yeast pitching temp.
The gluco will work at fermentation temp, just slower. It will be converting dextrin to simple sugar as the yeast is consuming the sugar, the mash pH during fermentation will drop down to the requirements of the gluco enzyme.

Hi shadylane,

Let me start with a report: today, I found some oyster shells and added them to the barrels. Both barrels are bubbling now. I’m not sure what the outcome of this fermentation will be, but it’s a great challenge for gaining experience and learning.

Fortunately, I found the mistake I made. Since I have a small cooking pot and can only cook 30 pounds of grain at a time, there were gaps between the cooking batches. My big mistake was not adding the yeast at the very beginning to create a dominant fermentation environment over other bacteria, which led to a bacterial infection.

Regarding your advice, I couldn’t find high-temperature enzymes on the market here, and I doubt they’re available. So, I’m planning to work with what I have, but if I do find high-temperature enzymes, that would be even better.

Based on my previous cooking experience, I was able to produce good and acceptable sugar. My plan is as follows: I’ll conduct the cooking process for alpha-amylase at 65-70°C for two hours (instead of the recommended one hour by the enzyme supplier). For glucoamylase, I’ll extend the process to 90 minutes (instead of the recommended 30 minutes) at 65-68°C. After that, I’ll raise the temperature to 90°C and keep it at that level for half an hour. Then, I’ll quickly lower the temperature to the yeast pitching range using a chiller and add the entire required amount of yeast. For instance, if I’m cooking 100 pounds of grain, I’ll add all the yeast to the first 30-pound batch to establish a strong fermentation environment. I’ll continue with this approach until the barrel is full.

Lastly, I’m very grateful for your attention and kindness in taking the time to assist me. Thank you!

[Roger1]

Of course, with this, the full potential of the grains for sugar production might not be fully utilized, but the health and safety of the fermentation process are largely guaranteed.

[Roger1]

I now think that your recommended method of using gluco after raising the temperature works better; it performs more effectively.

[shadylane]

My plan is as follows: I’ll conduct the cooking process for alpha-amylase at 65-70°C for two hours (instead of the recommended one hour by the enzyme supplier). For glucoamylase, I’ll extend the process to 90 minutes (instead of the recommended 30 minutes) at 65-68°C. After that, I’ll raise the temperature to 90°C and keep it at that level for half an hour. Then, I’ll quickly lower the temperature to the yeast pitching range using a chiller and add the entire required amount of yeast. For instance, if I’m cooking 100 pounds of grain, I’ll add all the yeast to the first 30-pound batch to establish a strong fermentation environment. I’ll continue with this approach until the barrel is full.

I wouldn't raise the temp to 90c after adding the gluco. Doing this will denature it and lower the mash efficiency.
Gluco is slow and it can't convert all the dextrin into simple sugar in 90 minutes.
Use the alpha mash temp of 65-70°C for two hours or more to kill off the bacteria.
Chill to gluco temp of under 65c wait a while and quickly chill to fermentation temp.
This way the mash is pasteurized and the gluco is still active.

[Roger1]

My plan is as follows: I’ll conduct the cooking process for alpha-amylase at 65-70°C for two hours (instead of the recommended one hour by the enzyme supplier). For glucoamylase, I’ll extend the process to 90 minutes (instead of the recommended 30 minutes) at 65-68°C. After that, I’ll raise the temperature to 90°C and keep it at that level for half an hour. Then, I’ll quickly lower the temperature to the yeast pitching range using a chiller and add the entire required amount of yeast. For instance, if I’m cooking 100 pounds of grain, I’ll add all the yeast to the first 30-pound batch to establish a strong fermentation environment. I’ll continue with this approach until the barrel is full.

I wouldn't raise the temp to 90c after adding the gluco. Doing this will denature it and lower the mash efficiency.
Gluco is slow and it can't convert all the dextrin into simple sugar in 90 minutes.
Use the alpha mash temp of 65-70°C for two hours or more to kill off the bacteria.
Chill to gluco temp of under 65c wait a while and quickly chill to fermentation temp.
This way the mash is pasteurized and the gluco is still active.

Yes, your method is better, and I’ll definitely use this approach.