Home Distiller

Got to agree with what MR is saying here. I have taken UJSSM to a 10th generation. Then I always start from scratch...

Done an UJSSM generation cycle chart for a beginner here in the UK...
Guess I'll post it for the beginners here as well... Here's a printable version...

Click Here...

It's just a little over 2MB....

Samohon, MR, others,

Thanx for the insightful information! It will be a great help! Now I understand from Samohon that he goes for around 10 cycles. And from MR I learn that if you keep backset (4th or 5th generation, probably?) in your fridge, you can always start over without having to go through the first say 2 or 3 cycles in which taste is still under full potential, right? Now I also read that you might continue with the same yeast on and on, as long as you balance your PH. Is there no way to just continue with the same yeast, e.g. when using not all your backset, but around 25%. That way the PH may be better controlled than when you add like 50% or 70% or do I not see it right. Somehow, the idea to continue with the same batch of yeast (even when adding new corn every now and then) is very appealing. A bit like a perpetuum mobilae, but also I imagine you develop sort of a special yeast in the end that is better and better suited to work in the given backset conditions. Maybe I should put my question forward in a more open way: how (if possible) could you use this method and keep the yeast you started with happy and reliable over as many cycles as you want? And what would this do to taste development?

Starting to love this recipe!

Odin

The commercial guy's have yeast farms that they use in their wash-backs, so replenishing fresh yeast for every batch is no problem. In Scotland, it is a strain of yeast that is usually cultured and replenished in a barrel that has a dedicated room at the best temperature for the strain. The make-up of the yeast is a secret only known to the distillers. Now, If I were given a 100ml flask with the culture inside, I could start my own yeast farm and never have to bother about buying yeast again.

With an UJSSM, the yeast is pitched once. IMO, there is a point, as MR suggests, where the yeast mutates. If this mutation is beneficial to only an UJSSM and whether-or-not is happiest with its current environment, remains to be seen. As of yet I have not heard of this happening. As I said, I take it to 10 gens then pitch with fresh ingredients and the most current backset.

I'll do a little poking around and get back to you...

Thanx Samohon,

One question: you say you take it to around 10 cycles and then put in fresh yeast and use the most current backset. Do you mean by the most current backset, the backset of your last (10th) cycle? Just a question of semantics, since I am not of English speaking decent. Another, more technical question also arises, though, I thought that de increasing acidity (PH) of the backset was setting the limit on say 10 cycles. If I underand correctly that you use the last backset of the 10th cycle while adding fresh yeast, I guess it is the yeast that is giving problems after 10 cycles right?

Odin.

Odin wrote:Do you mean by the most current backset, the backset of your last (10th) cycle?

Yes, Odin. I start the ingredients as in the recipe (replacing yeast, corn, sugar, water), but add the most recent (10th gen) backset...
Therefore, this enables me to continue the generations...

Hope it helps...

Sam,

This DEFENITELY helps. By using your last backset, you actually continue your cycles instead of starting over again. Now one last question, I hope you dont mind. Can you actually taste that on your 10th cycle (as compared to number 9 or that taste gets worse instead of better?

Odin.

Odin wrote:Sam,

This DEFENITELY helps. By using your last backset, you actually continue your cycles instead of starting over again. Now one last question, I hope you dont mind. Can you actually taste that on your 10th cycle (as compared to number 9 or that taste gets worse instead of better?

Odin.

I have never gone over 7-8 before starting over. I have always kept some extra Backset. My backset technically is 20-30 generations.
If I remember, it didn’t start getting really good until the third or fourth generation. I dont notice a difference in flavor from batch to batch unless I use substantial more backset in my wash.

There are several reasons to keep extra backset. So you can stop and start or if you screw up. I screwed up the other day. I included some birdwatchers feints in my UJSSM run. The heads were so bad with them combined that I was afraid to use the backset in my fermenter when re-pitching sugar to my lees. I went straight to my shop refer and got out three gallons and kept going. I know that I did not foul the flavor with bad tasting backset.

It occurs to me that I should start tasting my backset.
MR

mash rookie wrote:It occurs to me that I should start tasting my backset.

Strangely enough, I find the taste of backset with dissolved sugar (ready for the fermenter) to be a mildly pleasing flavor. Don't get me wrong, I wouldn't scoop up a cup and drink it, but just a taste on a spoon is not bad (IMHO )

As Mash Rookie says Odin, after about 4 or 5 generations, the flavour is gonna be consistent.
You can even freeze your backset and start generation 6, 3 months from now. The flavour profile would only increase when the backset is increased.
Stick to 25% for now, then take it up gradually if you want to. Careful though, with more backset comes the chance of stalling the ferment...

Hope it helps...

PS: I agree with WW, the taste from the backset is not that bad...

Thanks guys,

All your answers have helped me on my way. I now feel I understand better what is going on and that definietely helps me forward. I just listened to the buckets of UJSSM I have got going right now, and they still make some noise. On holidays, no airlock, so I listen in, so to say. Expect fermentation to stop in a day or two. I will keep you posted on my results!

Odin.

Titus-a-fishus wrote:Hey BD
Any help, hints or tips are appreciated
Have been oaking some UJSSM for about a month
Can't say that there is any real corn flavour yet.

The first one I did has plenty of corn flavour (6weeks oaking) and is nearly all gone
But none of the ones that followed have any.

As said, will try with frozen corn kernels that I have added already to the last ferment (that is still a week off finished).
Will see what happens.

Thanks for the interest and help

Still have to say - I am very happy with the UJSSM recipe and will be using it for a long time to come.
Just need to tweek what I am doing to get the corn flavour.

Cheers
TAF

Hi TAF,

Probably a very stupid question from a newby on UJSSM, but it is a mistake I made, not fully understanding the recipe at first (English not being my mother tongue). Did you grind the maize/corn? I didn''t on my first run, and eventhough I did get flavour, I expect it to improve dramatically now that I grinded my corn.

BTW, even the first generation of my UJSSM and after using whole kernels, I got something pretty decent.

Odin.

Just been doin some more reading on UJSSM. ONe more question arises. Some people write about adding feints to consecutive distillations. I guess this ads even more taste to the likker, right? Are all UJSSM''s made with feints, or is this an extra, that is not actually needed?
Odin.

I always add some feigns (about 3L - 4L) to the wash just before running. Depending on the amount of feigns added, this can significantly add to the flavour profile and abv of the overall run.
If and when you get any ujssm feigns, just add them to the wash at running time, your gonna get some feigns back anyway...

Hope it helps Odin...

Samohon,

Thanks again! I will put it into practise right away. I have 4 times 4 litres bubbling away and will start distilling in a day or 2!

Odin.

I have a question i have 3 5 gal buckets of UJSSM when I run them probably tomorrow can I transfer the yeast beds and corn from all 3 into a 15 gal container with no issues???

why not,id remove any spent grain first.

Thanks I thought it would be fine

Odin wrote:
Hi TAF,

Probably a very stupid question from a newby on UJSSM, but it is a mistake I made, not fully understanding the recipe at first (English not being my mother tongue). Did you grind the maize/corn? I didn''t on my first run, and eventhough I did get flavour, I expect it to improve dramatically now that I grinded my corn.

BTW, even the first generation of my UJSSM and after using whole kernels, I got something pretty decent.

Odin.

Sorry for the late reply
No I didn't grind the corn and you shouldn't need to as no one really does.
Cracked corn is supposed to be the go.
You will see from some of my previous posts that I have tried sweet corn roasted as well and still got no flavour.
So the next experiment will be playing with the PH.
But that won't happen until later in the year.
Have decided to stop stilling for the moment.
I think 30 ltrs should see me through until then

Cheers
TAF

TAF,

I have been following your postings and have been trying to puzzle out your lack of corn flavor. To be honest, it really beats the hell out of me why you are not getting corn flavor. Understanding that taste is a very subjective thing, I still can't understand why you are not getting corn flavor. But to put it all in perspective (from my somewhat limited experience) I have tried many variations of this GREAT recipe and I've found what is the best combination for me...I've found what gives me the best flavor profile. I'll start by briefly outlining my various versions (read: experiments lol). On my first go at UJSM, I followed the recipe and the instruction to the T. I let it go 5 generations. At that time, being brand new to this venerable craft I was greedy. Distiller's sin number one. I did not throw out or cut out a lot of what should never have made it into my whiskey. And, I didn't double and twist my likker. It was potable, but just barely. Also, due to no experience, I was still trying to figure out where I should make cuts. Now, going back to doubling and twisting...I know that not everyone double distills, and this is perfectly fine. Some people run combo rigs...say, a quasi-pot with a tiny bit of packing, or a long gooseneck that allows a bit more reflux than a stock pot still affords...some run their pot rig with a thump keg. From what I understand, all just ways to minimize the need to do a spirit run. And since taste is subjective, some folks just prefer the flavor of their corn likker run only once.

Getting on with my experiments...I also tried corn flakes and corn meal. And finally, I have landed on a simple recipe that I found gives ME the very best flavor profile out of everything I've tried. My friends and I all agree that this shine is some of the tastiest hillside hooch we've ever had. I use frozen corn. From the frozen veggie section at the supermarket. I use seven pounds. One pound gets run through the blender very slightly to break it up, but the rest just gets tossed in. Then I put about 4 or 5 cups of plain 'ol kellogs cornflakes into a plastic bag and crush them up as finely as I can by hand. Those get tossed into the fermenter. I believe that the cornflakes are FULL of nutrients. Not sure how much the cornflakes actually help, but they really did a damn fine job for me the first time, so I stick with it. I also use a pinch of epsom salt in my wash. Then, the 7lbs sugar. On my first batch, I heated about a gallon of water on the stove top and added in the sugar to properly invert it. Not sure how much this helped...but again, it worked like the dickens so I stick with it. Poured the inverted sugar water into my fermentor on top of the frozen (thawed) corn and the cornflakes and pinch of epson salts. Then top up with water to 5 gallons. I then hydrated 2 to 3 tablespoons spoons of active dry baker's yeast in a cup of water with sugar dissolved. While that was hydrating, I mixed the hell out of the water/ corn in the fermenter with my big 'ol mash paddle to aerate it and get it all mixed up good and proper. Then when the yeast was foamed up and about ready to spill over the edge of the container, I added it into my fermentor. Put my lid/ airlock on it and set it in a good dark spot. Within about 2 hours, it was working like crazy. Worked off for about 4 or 5 days (can't remember). After that I followed the basic instructions for this simple sour mash. Used only 25% backset in each generation. I scooped off about a cup or two of corn from the top of the corn bed everytime I drained the wash into the still, and replaced it. Usually got some of the cornflakes with the spent corn, so I replaced that with about 2 cups of cornflakes for the next generation. Just followed the basic plan after that.

At any rate, I stripped all the washes until I had about 5 gallons of low wines. Didn't make any cuts on my stripping runs. Then ran my 5 gallons of low wines at a medium rate. I seperated the foreshots and heads. Tossed the foreshots and kept the heads for the feints jar. When I felt that I was getting a good heart...then I started collecting. I collected 250ml jars and numbered them as they came off the still. I left them uncovered while the still was running so they could air out a bit. I ran those hearts until I could taste/ feel the alcohol level begin to drop and started tasting those tell-tale tails :d Then I began collecting the tails in seperate jars. So, at the end of my run I have a counterful of small jars with my whiskey in them. I covered the jars with coffee filter/ rubber bands and let them sit overnight. The next afternoon, I smelled/ tasted/ and felt (between my fingers) the distilate of each jar. The first three jars I could tell still had a lot of heads in them. I would not have thought that the day before. So, into the feints jar with my first three jars. the fourth jar was GOOD, and so forth down the line until I started noticing that the last two jars that I thought were still hearts the day before as they were coming off the still, suddenly didn't taste like the hearts I wanted...and tasted more like tails to me. So, into the feints jug with the last two jars of distilate. I was left with what I felt was the best part. So, into my whiskey jug with that. I then spent 2 weeks distress aging in and out of the freezer. When it was out of the freezer, I took the cap off and covered it with a coffee filter/ rubber band. Then when I was happy with what I was smelling, tasting, I capped it up and keep in the cupbard. Pour out a finger or two, and add water to my liking and sip. DAMN fine shine.

Now, I'm not sure if me using frozen corn and a bit of cornflakes has contributed to the flavor being better than when I was doing it with cracked corn or if maybe my skill at making cuts is starting to get better. It may be a combination of both, but I am starting to think that it can be attributed more so to my developing abilities to make cuts and not be greedy. Maybe others with more experience can elaberate on this. But once I realized that even though I'm seperating a good portion of whiskey into the feints jar, it's all getting recycled in subsequent stripping runs and I'm not really losing anything except for the foreshots that I toss away. Makes me feel better about making healthy cuts.

I don't go into all this thinking that it's the "best" way. It most likely is far from the best way. But it's what is finally working for me, after much experimentation. Now the question still remains....is it my ingredients that are making the difference or my growing skills at making proper cuts? Either way, I just wanted to share with you what works for me. It's been a long journey to finally get a product I actually like and enjoy sippin' on. A product I am proud to share with my friends. I hope that there was at least one sentence in their that can be helpful to you, and I hope that you keep crackin' away at it until you find YOUR proccess. It's well worth it when you finally start making what you really like

the pure drop, it sounds like a combination of everything that is contributing to your ending up with spirits that you like... That's what matters the most...

Fresh frozen corn adds significantly more flavor to the spirits than cracked corn... The Corn Flakes are also adding to the flavor component and also to the nutrients although not as much as some other cereals, like All Bran which is fortified to the hilt with vitamins and nutrients... All Bran has 4x the nutrients that Corn Flakes has in the same volume...

As for the sugar, it sounds more like you are merely dissolving it rather than doing a true inversion... There are several topics here coving invert sugar in detail that you may want to track down and review if you truly want to use it...

I'm sure you, like the rest of us, are getting better at making cuts and learning that being less greedy yields better results... Getting over the hump of wanting to keep the absolute most of the run as drinkable spirits out of every boiler charge comes sooner for some than for others...

If what you are doing is working for you and you don't feel like you are getting lesser quantity or quality for the cost and efforts then the only possible change would be to see if minor changes, such as reducing one component or another, makes a drastic change... Or just stick with what is working for you... There is no absolute single way to end up with what YOU like...

Thanks Rad. I also had a sneaking suspiscion that the frozen corn was contributing something nice to the flavor. But I can tell that the cuts are getting better by leaps and bounds. I must confess though... I didn't start using frozen corn out of choice, more so out of desperation. Where I currently live, the price of corn is very high. It's just not grown much around here where rice is the staple grain crop. It costs me about 24 dollars for 8 lbs of white corn. On the other hand, I can get enough frozen corn for about 5 dollars.

I saw boxes of pearled barley at the market the other day. After seeing that, I have been keenly curious to know how a UJSM using only barley would turn out like. Has anybody here tried it? I love the flavor of my corn ujsm, but I think I may give it a go when this current ujsm has run it's course.

I saw boxes of pearled barley at the market the other day. After seeing that, I have been keenly curious to know how a UJSM using only barley would turn out like.

You could also add some barley to the UJSSM, say thirty percent and see if you like it. Many add barley and like it. Wheat too.

Hey there The Pure Drop

I am humbled by the amount of time and effort you have put in, to assist me in the hunt for flavour from my UJSSM.

You may have noticed that I have tried frozen sweet corn and also sweet corn roasted for about 2-3 hours until it smelt delicious.
The problem doesn't seem to be in the corn as I still had no flavour even after using roasted and then cracked sweet corn. I could taste the flavour before fermenting it.

Somewhere after putting it all together there is a glitch.
I will give the epsom salts, grinding the corn and the corn flakes a go, over time.
As stated earlier I have stopped fermenting for the moment as I have thirty litres of 55% good clean spirits now.
Don't really need anymore, most of this is sitting in a stainless steel keg waiting for ... whatever I decide to do with it.
That's not including the many 2ltr jars being oaked and experimented with.

The UJSSM produces the most neutral and clean spirit I have made.
That is the reason I have continued using it and will use it again when I start up next time.

Had also tried a shorter column with the 90 and 45 degree bends... still nuthin.
So as said before - will work on the ph as that is an area I haven't tried yet.
Again thanks for the time and interest.
The changes you have mentioned are worth a go and will be tried...
I will crack this problem eventually and hopefully it will be useful to anyone else that comes across it in the future.

Cheers
TAF

Hi guys,

I put on my third generation of UJSSM wednessday over a week ago (second one with backset). It is still bubbling away. First and second run were ready in 5 days or so, this one may well reach 10 days. Any ideas as to why it takes longer? I read somewhere that the extra backset may slow things down. I may have overshot a bit and put in something like 30% rather than 25% ... What are the normal times to expect the mash to be fully fermented? I use the same quantities as in the original recipe as far as corn, sugar and yeast are concerned.

Thanx, Odin.

On the first fermentation, where you have no backset, you are making whats called a "Sweet Mash". You then distill this and save everything as low wines. On the next fermentation, you will add back anywhere from 25% to 40% of the "backset" from your previous distillation, this is called "Sour Mashing". This will slow the fermentation down somewhat. My first Sweet Mash of UJSSM takes between 4 - 6 days. After I "Sour Mash" my next generation, this can extend the fermentation times anywhere fro 6 - 10 days.

I've heard that some stillers add 100% of their backset back to the FB, but I suspect that they are getting their sugars from All-Grain mashing (Cooking) and not adding a sugarhead as we are here. You are shooting for a 5.0 pH to a 5.8 pH when adding back the sour mash, though I have never bothered to check this. Fermentation times will increase when adding the backset and will be different from stiller to stiller due to the variables involved.

One other thing I practice is attributed to the distillation process itself. I never take any UJSSM to age until the 4th generation. The reason is simple. As the 1st, 2nd and 3rd gens will give us a nice corn flavoured sour mash whiskey, the 4th generation significantly has a better flavour profile. It is after the 4th generation that I increase the backset percentage to 35% - 40%, but I have never used any more than 40%. Experimentation with the recipe is a must once you get the hang of learning to walk with the original recipe. IMO, +4th generations taste buch better and seem to age quicker. I have compared my UJSSM with some big names and I can honestly say, they well surpass anything I have bought...

Learn to use the original recipe Odin, then, when your ready, try working with, the already great tasting corn flavour and add a little more backset to get the taste profile your looking for...

Hope it helps...

One more thing:

Using backset will lower the pH of the mash. This can greatly be accelerated when using, IMO, anything over 40%. So what to do..?

If you wanted to use 100% backset with no mash water at all, you would need to bring the pH back up to around 5.0 - 5.5...

I picked up some "Five Star 5.2 pH Stabilizer" from the homebrew shop for a few $$$... Have not used it yet, but certainly plan to give it a go in the near future...

Heres some Info:

Five Star 5.2 pH Stabilizer

DESCRIPTION
52 is a proprietary blend of food-grade phosphate buffers (similar to brewer’s salts) that will lock in your mash and kettle water at a pH of 5.2 regardless of the starting pH of your water. 52 is safe for your mash and WILL NOT add any flavors to your beer. 52 will provide consistency of pH in any water conditions, but the most significant gains will be obtained if you are brewing in hard water.
Repeatability throughout the brewing process is the key to producing consistent high quality beer. Of all the ingredients in your beer, water is the most misunderstood component. Water is universal solvent for metals, minerals, cations and anions. The quality, hardness and subsequent pH of your water will affect enzymatic activity, solubility of salts, proteins and sugars as well as hop usage and perceived hop bitterness. In addition, water quality also contributes to scaling and mineral deposited on your equipment. Now you have the ability to control the pH of your brewing water under any conditions.

I'm not convinced that it's necessary to keep the backset in the next fementation below 50%. I'm in my 9th generation now and used about 70-80% backset each time. PH of the 8th generation was well below 3.8 (where my testpaper stops, so perhaps 3.0) but I've never noticed the fermentation taking more than about a week, about the same as with the early generations.

A silly question maybe, but did anyone ever used popped popcorn? It would seem to give much more surface area to the corn grain than just a cracked kernel. And more surface area means more to nibble on for the yeasties. Or is this a stupid thought? I also ask because popcorn costs about the same here as bird feed corn.

All very, very good points and ideas. And I've never used more than 25% backset...I may have to give more backset a go. I can say though, that this is a damn fine no-cook sugarhead recipe. My friends love this stuff and can't seem to get enough. One close bud of mine isn't even a whiskey drinker, but can't keep his grubby prick-skinners off my corn likker lol. So, again, hats off in a very big way to Uncle Jesse for this one. Just keeps getting better and better. When you take a look at how many replies and reads this thread has recieved, and how many people on here are making this recipe, it makes me think this is a "hall of famer" for sure....maybe create a "Hall of fame" thread that members can vote on recipes availalbe through the forum (based on a few preset parameters)....lol. Just love this one is all I can really say

I'm on my third round. This is my first recipe and i am thoroughly enjoying the learning process with this. My now third generation is coming off a bit slower but that was expected. Another serious issue that i am having it keeping enough to age. Between my brother, significant other, and myself we are simply drinking all of it. Anyone else experienced this problem? I took the liberty of starting two more buckets on top of the first one to attempt to remedy this. We'll see hot it goes.

Some observations from someone with much to learn;

-This is very easy to follow and get a great product.
-Making cuts isn't to terribly difficult as long and you stay conservative, as much as it hurts to.
-Corn flavor is AWESOME. Makes you really appreciate the good stuff and not want to mix.
-last but not least. It really says something about UJSSM that this thread is competing for the longest thread on HD with the joke thread. Shows how amazing this juice really is. Keep it up boys!!

Samohon wrote:Experimentation with the recipe is a must once you get the hang of learning to walk with the original recipe.
:

Beautifully simple and easy recipe that makes very good quality. Here are a few other things to consider. A small addition of a different grain to your corn will change flavor profile. Take baby steps.

Oaking ABV will change the flavor profile tremendously. Experiment with three equal amounts of distillate with equal amounts of oak. Oak at three different ABV levels 80p, 100p, and 120p. Equal time, then dilute all samples to 80p. You will have very different results.

I like heavy oak at lower ABV. Let us know what you like.