No Mash No sugar

[MooseMan]

Yeah I have no idea who the guy is, but I've followed the advice (Albeit loosely!) and not had issues so I'll continue to do it.

I'm pretty sure I read a thread on here that was discussing Sake or Soju, and the guys were saying that as long as the pH is low and the temps 30-32 at pitching, the yellow label ferments clean and fast with no strange aroma's or taste.

[Dancing4dan]

The initial PH adjustment is interesting. I have noticed after that leaving the ferment sit for a while after it is complete that the sour smell cleans up. I think the sour is Lacto but it also reminds me of the sour smell from a rum ferment. If it is Lacto this may explain why it goes away with a rest after ferment is complete.

[Dougmatt]

Not easy to search for examples on this board, but I remembered @squigglefunk had commented a few times before so I found a couple of his posts. Here’s an example.

while I prefer the regular mashing method flavor I do think the yellow label works fine and makes a good product.

He has definitely shared not liking the smell of the beer .

I will proceed with the side by side and like I said I am hoping for a great result because it would seem to make mash day much easier.

[zach]

I've always made sure to use approx. 10% backset, as I read it's important with YLAY to get the pH down at the start of the ferment to avoid off flavours.
So far I've had no issues of any kind.

If I have 20 gallons boiling water with 50 lbs of grain, you would add 2 gallons of backset ?

[MooseMan]

Approximately yes, I would.
I ferment my YLAY batches in 40L (approx 10g) vessels and I add 1gal of hot backset to each one.

I'll be honest I don't take any measurements at all.
I'm using YLAY as a lazy option so I'm not going to be adding any complications to it.

[Dougmatt]

Going to start my CROW YLAY tomorrow. Here’s what I am thinking. Please let me know if you think I’m off anywhere:

CROW attempt

20 Gallon Batch
28 lbs Corn meal
4 lb Red Wheat Malt
4 lb White Wheat Malt
4 lb Rye Malt
2 lb Toasted Oats

42 pounds or 19kg

Put all grains ground to flour into single fermentation vessel (25G)
Add hot water (my tap can get to 130+F)
Allow to cool to 90F
Pitch 100g YLAY
Maintain the temperature to be 85°F or so
Stir twice every day in the first three days.
Ferment for 8-15 days (I will be out of town for three weeks so it will go longer.

[MooseMan]

Looks good to me!
I tend to use at least 2% oats in every recipe, but that's just my preference.

The only thing I'd comment on is temp, the closer you hold it to 90f the happier it is.
And I continue to mix in the cap beyond 3 days until it falls by itself.

[Dougmatt]

Looks good to me!
I tend to use at least 2% oats in every recipe, but that's just my preference.

The only thing I'd comment on is temp, the closer you hold it to 90f the happier it is.
And I continue to mix in the cap beyond 3 days until it falls by itself.

Sounds good. Thanks. My only heat source is a brew belt which won’t keep it at 90…. I’ll see if I can think of something else.

[MooseMan]

If you have some nice fleece blanket to wrap over the belt, and some reflectix to go outside of that, it will help a lot.

I'm sure the temps you mention will be good enough though.
I think minimum recommended is 26c.

[zach]

It is amazing how this stuff eats through a thick porridge.

I had 20 gallons of water to 50 lbs of buckwheat that was so thick it was difficult to stir with my mash paddle. Returned 36 hours later to find it much less viscous and a mess on the floor. The 32 gallon brut was not large enough contain this ferment.

[Saltbush Bill]

If you'd returned sooner and stirred it twice every 24 hours as the in instructions reccomended that might not have happened.

[Dancing4dan]

If you'd returned sooner and stirred it twice every 24 hours as the in instructions reccomended that might not have happened.

Agree this seems to prevent a mess.

Push the cap down and stir everyday. The cap grains need exposure to the enzymes and yeast for them to convert and to ferment.

[zach]

I knew I was not going to follow the instructions as I had a short trip planned. The grain was ground to a flour and was hit with boiling water the night before. I put in extra effort into the mixing and over-dosed the YLAY by 2x.

Now at 48 hours since pitching, the near solid mass of gelled grain is liquid. Not sure of ethanol content, but it looks similar to another ferment I started 2 weeks previously which I followed the instructions as far as stirring 2x a day.

I've purchased a new heavy duty stainless mash paddle with a 42" handle that seems like a winner for this process.

[Beerswimmer]

Re: PH

I have been doing basically 50/50 backset/water for my mashes and have been having 100% success. I'm not saying to do it, but it's working great for me. For my grains I toss cracked corn from the feed store, and sometimes rolled oats, into my hammer mill and use a screen that's between cracked corn but closer to corn meal. After a strip I pour 5 gallons of hot backset straight from the boiler into the fermenter and let it sit to sterilize a bit. Fill another 5 gallons bucket and pour it in too. Add 25% of the grain and stir. Get another 5 gallons and add it, stir. Add another 25% of the grains and stir. Continue until the grain is gone and I add backset until I get to 50% of the total liquid(knowing what the fermenter will fill to) is backset. I then add the hottest water that can get from my tap.Top off with that. Let sit a few hours to cook a bit and sterilize a bit, stir. Check temps. If over 100F stir and wait a few more hours. If ~90F add Angel and stir, wrap in blankets. After 12 hours it should be boiling and have a good cap, stir. Stir again after 8 or so hours. Stir and add a couple handfuls of seashells. Stir 2x's per day for the first 3, then 1 for 2 days after. I Usully check it after 10 or so days and run around the 2 week mark. No off smells, no big lacto infections. Just good strong ferments that don't seem to be lacking in anything.

I have been doing this with basically the same recipe for about 8 gens since Feb, no issues. My fermenter is a 50-ish gallon trash can that I wrap some wool blankets around. My recipe is 85% corn, 15% rolled oats. My first ferments had the oats, since then it's 100% corn. ~65lbs of grain, 120 grams of Angel, between 40-50 gallons of total liquid. After straining with my mom bucket I end up with ~35 gallons to clear for a few days before I strip. This is just about perfect for my 26 gallon milk can boiler and keg thumper. I'll now put the oats through my roller mill instead of the hammer mill due to ease of liquid extraction. I'm making this to fill a big barrel for the start of a whiskey solera. I'll keep at this the same way until the barrel is full, or I get a stall....but it's been going like clockwork. My fermenting area is in my uninsulated garage in a cold maritime environment. Warm is warm enough, and even cold is warm enough. It just took a bit longer to ferment. No change in product noticed.

Maybe the acid environment helps the yeast take over and then the PH buffering helps their health? My way was just an easy slapdash way to use free hot liquid. The seashells are what saves it and makes it work.

Well anyways, it works great for me.

[MooseMan]

Wow that's a heap load more backset than I've been using, so I could probably push it a fair bit higher with no issues at all.
I don't use shells in my grain ferments as the grain always seems to buffer the pH fine, but maybe that's what is allowing you to get away with such a high backset addition and have no issues.

I'll try going to 20% next round and see if I notice any change at all.

Thanks for the detailed write up Beerswimmer.

[Beerswimmer]

No, I'm NOT saying to do what I do! Not at all.

I was just putting out a single instance of where starting with a low PH has repeatedly worked for many generations for one person. For discussion on how to best work with this unique yeast.

[Beerswimmer]

What I'd really like is to figure out co-pitching with a flavorful yeast. Angel is about as flavorless as yeast gets, I'd love to try using a Belgian or kveik yeast to get some more flavor. I thought about using some DME to make a 5 gallon bucketful of 1-2 day old frothing beer to toss into the fermenter after a day of Angel and see what happens.

?

[MooseMan]

No, I'm NOT saying to do what I do! Not at all.

I was just putting out a single instance of where starting with a low PH has repeatedly worked for many generations for one person. For discussion on how to best work with this unique yeast.

Yeah I get that, no way would I go straight to 50%.

Much as yourself though, I do like to make use of at least some of that "Free" acidic backset.

My process is a little different in that I always set up a ferment during a strip, but I run the very minimum of water through the PC and use the hot exit water to mix and soak the grain while I'm stripping, then add my 10% backset at the very end and put the fermenter to bed hot for the night.
So in essence I'm not using any water or energy for the start of the ferment at all, as it was a product of the strip run in any case.

[NZChris]

I put one down a couple of days ago using the leftover grains from three generations of UJSSM.

Two stripping runs worth of backset plus condenser water got me 51C/124F. It's bubbling away nicely and the refractive index is changing every day.

[john_bud]

Going to start my CROW YLAY tomorrow. Here’s what I am thinking. Please let me know if you think I’m off anywhere:

CROW attempt

20 Gallon Batch
28 lbs Corn meal
4 lb Red Wheat Malt
4 lb White Wheat Malt
4 lb Rye Malt
2 lb Toasted Oats

42 pounds or 19kg

Put all grains ground to flour into single fermentation vessel (25G)
Add hot water (my tap can get to 130+F)
Allow to cool to 90F
Pitch 100g YLAY
Maintain the temperature to be 85°F or so
Stir twice every day in the first three days.
Ferment for 8-15 days (I will be out of town for three weeks so it will go longer.

Question: how do you separate the gooey flour mess from the fermented beer?? I tried corn flour and lost over half the volume to "glop" that wouldn't strain out the liquid. It clogged everything.

[zach]

Question: how do you separate the gooey flour mess from the fermented beer?? I tried corn flour and lost over half the volume to "glop" that wouldn't strain out the liquid. It clogged everything.

Steam it in a thumper.

[Saltbush Bill]

Don't grind to flour.
Strain left overs through a brew in a bag ,bag.

[john_bud]

Don't grind to flour.
Strain left overs through a brew in a bag ,bag.

The person above listed "ground to flour".

I used a brew in a bag.... instant total clog up with fine material. Getting "clean" liquid out is my downfall!

[Dougmatt]

Going to start my CROW YLAY tomorrow. Here’s what I am thinking. Please let me know if you think I’m off anywhere:

CROW attempt

20 Gallon Batch
28 lbs Corn meal
4 lb Red Wheat Malt
4 lb White Wheat Malt
4 lb Rye Malt
2 lb Toasted Oats

42 pounds or 19kg

Put all grains ground to flour into single fermentation vessel (25G)
Add hot water (my tap can get to 130+F)
Allow to cool to 90F
Pitch 100g YLAY
Maintain the temperature to be 85°F or so
Stir twice every day in the first three days.
Ferment for 8-15 days (I will be out of town for three weeks so it will go longer.

Pulled the first 6G out of the fermenter this morning. About 1.5 months. The beer sitting next to a “normal” batch of CROW is very dark. YLAY is a dark brown beer (like a dark porter), the standard process is a straw colored beer (like an ipa) so there is noticed difference number 1.

I’m running the standard beer now and smells / tastes normal through the strip. Will run the YLAY after I do the spirit on the standard process.

I usually recycle feints, but thinking I will run the YLAY without recycling my standard feints in….

Final SG on the YLAy is 1.010 which was surprising. Read several posts that sg is irrelevant, so Hoping its finished…. Still bubbling a little but expect that is just degassing.

[The Booze Pipe]

Going to start my CROW YLAY tomorrow. Here’s what I am thinking. Please let me know if you think I’m off anywhere:

CROW attempt

20 Gallon Batch
28 lbs Corn meal
4 lb Red Wheat Malt
4 lb White Wheat Malt
4 lb Rye Malt
2 lb Toasted Oats

42 pounds or 19kg

Put all grains ground to flour into single fermentation vessel (25G)
Add hot water (my tap can get to 130+F)
Allow to cool to 90F
Pitch 100g YLAY
Maintain the temperature to be 85°F or so
Stir twice every day in the first three days.
Ferment for 8-15 days (I will be out of town for three weeks so it will go longer.

Pulled the first 6G out of the fermenter this morning. About 1.5 months. The beer sitting next to a “normal” batch of CROW is very dark. YLAY is a dark brown beer (like a dark porter), the standard process is a straw colored beer (like an ipa) so there is noticed difference number 1.

I’m running the standard beer now and smells / tastes normal through the strip. Will run the YLAY after I do the spirit on the standard process.

I usually recycle feints, but thinking I will run the YLAY without recycling my standard feints in….

Final SG on the YLAy is 1.010 which was surprising. Read several posts that sg is irrelevant, so Hoping its finished…. Still bubbling a little but expect that is just degassing.

It was stated a few times that the yeast is done when there is no further bubbling. Maybe next time give it a good stir to release gasses, and see if it continues to bubble.

I'm not clear if you can follow progress with a hydrometer like you can with the refractometer....?

I am assuming you have distilled this by now. I'm curious what you found in your comparison!

[The Booze Pipe]

I just finished reading the entire thread!
Very mixed results, mixed procedures, and mixed conclusions. What I did find in common, except for Beerswimmers procedure, is if you follow the manufacturer's recommendations for prep and temp control, you should consistently get good results.

Also, all of these Lacto and other infections people are getting (I'm 90% sure on this) are from the grains being used. A quick google search showed lacobacillus dies at temps of 266f! But I think these lacto-bacto's can come from where ever... I'm just saying it's not the Yellow Label creating it.
The longer your grains are steeped in hot/warm water (even boiling) the longer these bacteria have to colonize.

My conclusion: It's worth a try for a bourbon. You decide if you like it. It should be fantastic to use for a neutral/vodka!

[Beerswimmer]

Also, all of these Lacto and other infections people are getting......I'm just saying it's not the Yellow Label creating it.
My conclusion: It's worth a try for a bourbon. You decide if you like it. It should be fantastic to use for a neutral/vodka!

I hope you like your results, I'll probably never go back to mashing!

This eliminated one of the messiest, expensive, and most critical steps that took up too much damn time for me. Heating something up for so long just to cool it all back down again later

Playing with more flavorful yeasts is what I'm going to be experimenting with going forward. Figuring out an easy way to combine a big estery yeast with the Angel at home shouldn't be too difficult, and then i believe way more people would be using it.

I do like how it's so neutral of a yeast that I can really taste the individual grains and the flavors that they bring. Grain forward.

The lacto infections aren't an issue for ME, I don't mind them when they happen. Usually only because I left a ferment to settle for a long time, but not too often. I don't ferment with an airlock. It's not the yeast.

[Dougmatt]

how it's so neutral of a yeast that I can really taste the individual grains and the flavors that they bring. Grain forward.

This was not my experience. I found ylay lacks the small grain flavors versus a traditional mash at least in the white spirit. Have you done a side by side?

My impression was the grain flavors weee very muted and not present like I would expect. I’m interested to see how it ages, but I was underwhelmed for a flavored spirit like a whiskey.

The time savings in the mash process and the losses in squeezing are fairly significant, but then compared to the years of aging investment it’s really irrelevant so it’s a trade off I’m not yet sure is worth it.

[Beerswimmer]

One trade off you might like is if you ever want to do a 100% rye or oat whiskey, no goop.

I did do a small side by side when I first got YLAY, a 15 gallon bourbon mash of corn + grains but I can't remember what or the %'s but basic. Both were fermented at the same time and stripped and a spirit within a few days of each other and sampled white. All I remember is that the no-boil method with enzymes mashed batch with bread yeast tasted more like cooked sweet corn and bread crust , and the Angel was more of a cornbread and grains from the bag flavor but still the correct white dog flavor I expected. Marginal differences, as with most bourbon recipes.

My aged whiskies I haven't compared,I don't have any pre-YLAY. But I can tell that there's Munich malt in there instead of just "maltyness". And no yeast flavor, but personally that has never bothered me at all in any flavorful spirit. My whiskies get a big % of backset and have a ton of flavor to me. I only use a pot and thumper to try to get as much flavor as I can. I use a mop & bucket and let everything settle for 2 days before a strip. Clearer goes into the propane fired boiler, the less clear goes into the thumper and run as hard as I can. Then a 1.5 with some chunky wash in the thumper for the spirit runs.

The time savings to me hasn't had any drawbacks that I have noticed, but being able to ferment off the grain would be nice sometimes.

[Dougmatt]

Clearer goes into the propane fired boiler, the less clear goes into the thumper and run as hard as I can. Then a 1.5 with some chunky wash in the thumper for the spirit runs.

Hmm. I’m thinking your thumper process using effectively uncooked grain may be giving you the enhanced grain flavors in your white…. Are you cooking grain before YLAY at all? I just use about 150F water from the tap.

I clear my wash, double pot still, no thumper. Grain flavor in the YLAY white is very muted. Almost tastes diluted. Higgens in the other thread noted he thought the same with the white, but it aged out to taste close to the same. I’m interested to see if I get the same result.

As noted in the other thread, I’m not saying I don’t like YLAY, just that the jury is still out on which I like better. In my process, the white traditional has more flavor and would be my preference, but I don’t keep or drink white whiskey so the result after aging is far more important