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I might be able to help you out with a contact for your excellent quality barrels. I live 10 miles from Kevin Cooperage. Each year they have surpluses of excellent quality, one time use, barrels at $50.00 USD any quantity. If you didn't mind using used barrels to make lighter spirits at first or for aging brandies this is a great price by any measure. I just stopped in there last week (03/15/07) to verify the prices because I am gearing up to fill one or two myself for posterity.

At this point shipping would be the only obstacle.

pintoshine wrote:I might be able to help you out with a contact for your excellent quality barrels. I live 10 miles from Kevin Cooperage. Each year they have surpluses of excellent quality, one time use, barrels at $50.00 USD any quantity. If you didn't mind using used barrels to make lighter spirits at first or for aging brandies this is a great price by any measure. I just stopped in there last week (03/15/07) to verify the prices because I am gearing up to fill one or two myself for posterity.

At this point shipping would be the only obstacle.

Another source of good oak barrels (both American and French Oak) is Re-Coop (http://www.recoop.net) in Sebastopol, CA. They completely strip down and rebuild barrels from wineries in Sonoma/Napa Counties. The barrels are like new, but around 30% of the normal price.

Been awhile since I've been on here I just want to say congrats on getting your dream distillery going. You gotta tell us all when it is open and where it is. I'd for sure love to go for a tour of it. I use to live in Colorado and loved hitting up all the small micro brewers there. Always wanted to go to the Jack Daneils distillery just never had time. It's sad to say I have visited this page so many times and never made a still or made whiskey I have only made beer and wine but I think that will be changeing soon. Congrats

Chris

UJ,

While I am new to actually posting on these forums, I have been a longtime reader and hobbyist. I remember discovering this site in college ages ago and printing many of the designs and documents out on the dorm printer to be stapled and read later.

First, I would like to say that this is a great thread. I've really enjoyed reading about the process of starting a commercial distillery from the ground-up. Really great stuff. It's also good to know that those of us who want to do it ourselves someday have some experience in the matter we might be able to draw from.

The conversations I've been reading on this thread remind me a lot of the conversations I've had with people when I share my dream of operating a commercial distillery with them. Most of the time, they're concerned that someone will wonder where I learned to distill. Usually I tell them that, unless their last name is "Beam", most distillers will tell you that they got their start making hooch in the garage.

Second, I have some thoughts on spirits that you could produce while waiting for your initial stock to age. I imagine that the first few years are the toughest for any new whiskey distillery because, like you said, they have to make stuff in the interim that can be quickly produced. Of course, many of those things are schnappses and vodkas, and with them it's all about marketing: "triple-distilled this, virginal glacial water that". I was thinking about it the other night and wondering what I would do to get things going if I ever started a spirits business of my own.

One idea I came up with was to create infusion-type spirits out of things that had never been used before or were only used in rare instances overseas. For instance, I recently read an article somewhere about a hempseed-infused vodka that is being created and sold now. I remember thinking that it was a fairly brilliant idea. Even though hemp is legal, you'd still have all kinds of people buying such a thing for the perceived "high" and for the unique taste. The same principle applies to the so-called "safe absinthe" Absente. I'm sure both of them are doing gangbusters, and they don't have to worry about nearly as many factors as you'll have to worry about when creating a unique whiskey.

If your commitment is to make only frontier-type spirits, I'm sure you could do some research and find a case for making some kind of historical beverage or "historically inspired" beverage.

Just some ideas for you. I can 100% assure you you will have me as a customer (especially if you ever choose to make a straight-rye).

As a newbie from the northwest I'm really currious how the licensing and stuff is going.

Being in the heart of Wine Country I've been kickin around the idea lately about going legit or at least upgrading a lil bit. I was just given 30000 gallons of grape juice to play with. At 10 gallons a run I might be busy for awhile.

I think it's great that you’re opening your own distillery. I've been distilling for a while now and absolutely love it so I've been dreaming of opening a distillery but because of all the laws around here I figured it was just that a dream.

Recently though I found out about a law that they just passed around here. The law is that they just added a new license for "mini distilling" and the license is only fifty bucks a year. So I might go legit some time down the road.

So I was wondering what kind of stuff you had to go threw. Like any health and fire codes you have to meat, any restrictions on were you can put your distillery, and is there any kind of requirements on what kind of building you can use and so on.

Thanks, Oakie

For you Canadians, there is an interesting history of a New Brunswick
distillery here......

http://www.winegardenestate.com/History.htm

The politics and laws (the same thing I guess) are not conducive for distilling in NB.

Another Canadian distillery that has recent success is in Nova Scotia
and can be found here.....

http://www.glenoradistillery.com/glenbreton.htm

hey Oakie, got a link or any other info on the mini-distilling license? thanks.

also it sure seems like regulations on making ethanol for fuel should ease up soon, with all the focus on alt. energy. just read that 25%+ of the corn crop in the US is now going to ethanol production. bad news is it's driving the price of feed corn, etc. up due to demand for corn.

oakie wrote:I think it's great that you’re opening your own distillery. I've been distilling for a while now and absolutely love it so I've been dreaming of opening a distillery but because of all the laws around here I figured it was just that a dream.

Recently though I found out about a law that they just passed around here. The law is that they just added a new license for "mini distilling" and the license is only fifty bucks a year. So I might go legit some time down the road.

So I was wondering what kind of stuff you had to go threw. Like any health and fire codes you have to meat, any restrictions on were you can put your distillery, and is there any kind of requirements on what kind of building you can use and so on.

Thanks, Oakie

I haven't been able to find a hole lot about it but I know that the bill did pass.

Here's the link http://www.ellenjaye.com/wh_im-sb234.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I Also found out that a couple other states have pased similar laws. Search Wikipedia for "Mini Distilleries" there's a list there of states that already have mini distilleries so of coarse they have already passed a simalar bill. Don't know much else.

Hope that helps, Oakie

Good info, thanks Oakie. Been searching for similar laws in Virginia, and looks like they're not as lenient but do cut a break to smaller distilleries:

Distillery (5000 gallons or less annually) $450.00
Distillery (over 5000 gallons annually) $3,725.00

http://www.abc.virginia.gov/licensing/liccost.htm

And here's the WV application:

http://www.wvabca.com/download/minidist ... Packet.pdf

I'm going for a full license. I know you can get a sort of learners license from the feds, but why bother if you've got to get the location, equipment and so on.

Heard today that I should be getting city approval today or tomorrow so I can start my buildout, get a bond, file my federal paperwork and apply to get gas run to this warehouse in the next few days.

Many questions:

When you filed for basic permit, what was your entity (Sole, Corporation, LLC)?

What had to happen state-wise for the entity to be legit?

What, if anything, did you go to a beverage lawyer for?

What did you determine for your "still capacity" and what P.G. did you finally settle on for the purposes of bond? (Operational?)

What payments and records are kept/submitted from start to transfer to wholesaler? When are any taxes paid and how can they be avoided?

Who provides your surety and how did you zero it in?

Can you explain how you differentiate your general premises from the bonded premises and how did you manage security to meet or exceed the requirements of 27 CFR 19.281?

What are the monthly and yearly payments made (you don't have to pay the special excise tax, but you do have to register, right?) for the operations of a DSP?

Do I have to register as a "Processor" to re-distill or is that covered by "Distiller?"

Will have to do anything for a Pre-COLA Product Evaluation?

Aerea wrote:Many questions:

When you filed for basic permit, what was your entity (Sole, Corporation, LLC)?

We're an LLC.

What had to happen state-wise for the entity to be legit?

I had to register it with the state.

What, if anything, did you go to a beverage lawyer for?

Beverage lawyer? Never heard of one. I read all of Title 27 myself and haven't needed an attorney yet. If so, I can stay in-family for that or go to some pals who have passed the bar.

What did you determine for your "still capacity" and what P.G. did you finally settle on for the purposes of bond? (Operational?)

I figured 25 or 30 runs per week as still capacity. I mean realistically that's about it. Technically we could run 2 runs a day, 7 days a week, I suppose. I'm going to get bonds to cover about 2,000 proof gallons.

What payments and records are kept/submitted from start to transfer to wholesaler? When are any taxes paid and how can they be avoided?

Many records. The TTB provides monthly records for processing, for storage and you have to file taxes 2x/month unless you make less than $50k at which point you can file twice annually. The TTB agent I spoke with couldn't answer if that's $50k/year or per fiscal quarter.

Who provides your surety and how did you zero it in?

An insurance company. The feds have an approved list of companies online on the TTB site somewhere. I didn't really zero it in. If I need to store more than 2k proof gallons I can easily get a larger bond and file a bond amendment.

Can you explain how you differentiate your general premises from the bonded premises and how did you manage security to meet or exceed the requirements of 27 CFR 19.281?

There is no difference. Any casks I have will stay on-site. My warehouse will soon be bonded. I had to fork out a few thousand for the proper locks, explosion bars and alarm system. We shall see if I have to get bars on the windows or whatever else.

What are the monthly and yearly payments made (you don't have to pay the special excise tax, but you do have to register, right?) for the operations of a DSP?

This depends on your state and the feds outline their stuff quite clearly. You pay every other week and you have to keep very close track of every bit produced, stored, etc. My state charges a small fee for operating and another for each still. I forget what the federal fee is. $500? $1000? something like that if I'm not mistaken. With the amount of tax they stand to make the fees don't need to be high.

Do I have to register as a "Processor" to re-distill or is that covered by "Distiller?"

If you are going to re-distill then you need to register for it. This does not mean redistilling low wines.

Will have to do anything for a Pre-COLA Product Evaluation?

It all depends on the recipes used. There is a link in this thread, I believe, for the pre-cola evaluation standards. Quite a few spirits will require laboratory evaluation before they are approved, especially liqueurs and some cordials.

I mailed off my paperwork to the TTB

Congrats, Uncle Jesse. I'm sure all your hard and tedious work will pay off. It's great to know that one of us on this site are actually living the dream.

If there is anything that I on anyone else on this site can do to help you along don't hesitate to ask. I'm sure our support will be overwhelming.

So when do you hear back on the paper work?

congratulations and I hope everything goes smoothly.

The feds kicked back the application because I didn't have my surety bond. This is a catch-22 since the bond company flatly refused to talk to me so I told them I'd file the paperwork and we'd see what the feds said. Now, the feds have returned my application but did an outstanding job of putting yellow sticky notes on every item which I need to explain further and so on.

Now the bond company has spoken to the feds and we are sending in our paperwork for the bond as I type this. After we get the bond we can file a perfected application.

The feds have a new rule and must approve any accepted application within 60 days or receipt. This is why they are not accepting any application which isn't perfect any more. In prior years, as I had understood it, you could get your application in and they'd get back to you with refinements, holding your application in-house until all the requirements were met. Not so any more.

I've been speaking to folks about a loan and also about distribution. I've also spoken to a few folks about contract work once we're up and running. So, I'm very hopeful but still pushing forward through some red tape.

Uncle Jesse wrote:The feds have a new rule and must approve any accepted application within 60 days or receipt. This is why they are not accepting any application which isn't perfect any more. In prior years, as I had understood it, you could get your application in and they'd get back to you with refinements, holding your application in-house until all the requirements were met. Not so any more.

This is also the "rule" on a fuel permit. The regs actually state, that if the feds do NOT give a response back to you in 60 days, then you have a "defacto" permit to proceed forward (i.e. you have a license, due to lack of issuance of the license, or issuance stating that your license was not granted).

However, that sounds like pretty gray area to me. I would NOT proceed unless I had sent the the application as a "registered receipt" mail, and had gotten a receipt listing the application had been delivered properly.

But yes, I bet they do NOT accept anything short of a "perfect" application now that the 60 day requirement is in the regs.

How are the bonds set for drinking liquor? I think they are much "worse" than for fuel ethanol.

For fuel, it is:
10k proof gallons / year: No bond (i.e. a small plant).
20k to 500k proof gallons: $1,000 per each 10k production expectation
500k to 1240k: $50,000 + $2000 per each 10k over the 500k level (capped at $200,000 bond for any plant above 1240k proof gal / year)

Note that bonded product from a fuel producer can be transfered to a bonded warehouse for a liquor producer, but there are lots of regs about that.

H.

Whew, sounds like a bucket of red tape fun. Sorry you gotta go through it, but there's reward at the end.

Its been a while since I've been here reading. Whats the new news???

Our build-out is almost done now. We've got to do some work on the boiler, but we can run water through our mash tun/lauter tun and also we can operate all the pneumatic valves. We cracked one of the pumps open because it wasn't working and managed to fix it. The floor drain is in place which was a big project.

I've filed the federal paperwork again, this time with the bond which was a real hassle to obtain, as it turns out. Want $1,000,000 in insurance? Not a problem. Want a $15,000 bond? Get ready for some surprises. I believe I finally negotiated the minutiae of Title 27 and the paperwork in proper fashion. Form 5110.41 is a real hassle and requires careful reading of legal definitions and so on.

We now have all our equipment and are finishing up all the connections and so on.

I've also spoken to a few distributors who are keen to give our product a shot, once we have a product.

No offense, but just what the F do you expect to be able to put out with that puny little fire extinguisher

With 300 gallons, I think it is time to upgrade that little thing (or install a sprinkler).

H.

At the time of purchase I figured 300 gallons was a relatively small still for a legal distillery. Now that I learn more about the industry, however, I see that it's a bit larger than most small batch distilleries out there at this time.

It's starting to look like a distillery.

With 50 gallons or so of product coming off that thing each time you charge it, I think fire is something to take seriously, even if you are using steam pipes to heat the boiler. With that much flammable (semi explosive if you kick it up enough with that column), it would take a flame retardant system that has actually been planned out.

H.

Uncle Jesse wrote:It's starting to look like a distillery.

That is getting frickin cool looking UJ!

The building is adequately sprinklered. The city wants me to build a retaining wall around the still and we'll probably do it with masonry blocks a few feet high. The city wanted me to get a fire extinguisher as well, so I got two because I like to be on the safe side.

I'll be storing the distillate in stainless steel containers so there's no chance of breaking one of them resulting in a spill.

But of course, as always, there's risk of danger in distilling. I can minimize it but I can't eliminate it. Safety first, safety first, safety first.

I FULLY understand that they want a retainer. Any time you deal with liquids which (even remotely) can be dangerous/toxic, most city planners make one retain any spills, and the regs usually seem pretty extreme.

What is so flippin funny, is that a restaurant can simply dump used grease into a square welded mild steel box (dumpster) outside, in the back (usually they at least require a fence). However, if a B.D. processor picks up that same oil, from that point on, it has to be treated as semi toxic waste, and "retained".

Do you have any regs from the city about how you have to store product (protective building, room, etc)?

H.