My plastic still

[xylic75]

In the course of my work, I've seen many, many plastic bottles with high proof spirits in them. Sent to me by the distillers. I have yet to find one sample that didn't contain detectable amounts of plasticizer. How much di-iso-octyl phthalate do YOU want to eat?

(I certainly don't mean to be argumentative on this most merry of days: I'm just strongly advising against the use of plastics where, in my opinion, they don't belong.)

Well as I said above, I wouldn't drink it. However we have to use PGA for cleaning where I work as the denatured that available to us has typically be denatured with something that is harmful to the delicate electronic stuff we have to clean. The PGA still smells like PGA from the plastic though. The biggest issue is that its not available in glass anywhere in town that I have found. Considering your line of work have you ever submitted this to the FDA? Or are the plastisizers in such low amounts that they would be considered safe for human consumption by FDA standards?

[The Chemist]

PTFE is the best one to use of all--if you have to. I wouldn't worry about a few turns of tape to "keep things in". Certainly a lot neater than flour paste.

I wouldn't want to be accused of taking my anti-plastic fanaticism to an extreme...



Merry Christmas to all!!

[The Chemist]

Well as I said above, I wouldn't drink it. However we have to use PGA for cleaning where I work as the denatured that available to us has typically be denatured with something that is harmful to the delicate electronic stuff we have to clean. The PGA still smells like PGA from the plastic though. The biggest issue is that its not available in glass anywhere in town that I have found. Considering your line of work have you ever submitted this to the FDA? Or are the plastisizers in such low amounts that they would be considered safe for human consumption by FDA standards?

One learns very quickly to stay away from all government agencies, as much as possible.

And yes, I suppose the booze would kill you first...

[Sinker]

Thanks for that, Chemist. I didn't have a problem with using small amounts of PTFE to start with, but good to hear your expert opinion.

[rkr]

Good God. I know I've been away for a while, but still on the plastic thing?

ONE LAST TIME--hopefully. SOME plastics are okay to store LOW PROOF alcohol in (polycarbonates only, please--unless you really CAN afford PTFE)--NO PLASTIC is good for hot or high proof alcohol.

Don't do it. Don't argue. Or at least don't blame ME if there's ever a problem.

And if your worried about the copper content of your booze--you might want to think about cutting back...

Chemist, what's your opinion of hot (up to 100C) low proof (less than 20%) alcohol in contact with polypropylene?

Also, do those plasticizers you found in alcohol vaporize and at what temperature?

Cheers, Riku

[Stillhead]

Just curious about the method that you use to quantify di-iso-octyl phthalate. Is it volatile enough for GC. Do you use HPLC? What detector? Do you have access to these methods on a regular basis? I would like to test my hootch sometime, and would like to know what the standard tests are.

[The Chemist]

rkr: I'd be worried about 100C and polypropylene even at low proof, but at room temp, it's probably okay. Don't think I've ever seen that variation, though. I know people ferment in plastic a lot (likely polyprop--I prefer glass, but, then, I just make beer). Mebbe I'll run a little test when I get the time...

I'd have to check on the vap. temps...

stillhead: You can find the 'standard tests' in the Journal of the Association of Official Analytical Chemists. It should be in any university library, probably most major publics, too.

For plasticizers and most everything else, we use GC/MS. HPLC, also, for stuff like sugars, polyphenols and the like--UV and RID. We rarely, but still sometimes, use the 'standard tests'--many are like doing surgery with a shotgun.... We're more like a research lab than a QA/QC lab--mostly develop our own methods.

A while back, I tried to get some samples form forumites for testing. Understandably, all but one were reluctant to send such things to someone they don't know from Adam. The two samples tested very well, and, while it can't said to be representative in any meaningful way, shows that a homedistiller CAN produce a very good, safe beverage alcohol.

[rkr]

rkr: I'd be worried about 100C and polypropylene even at low proof, but at room temp, it's probably okay. Don't think I've ever seen that variation, though. I know people ferment in plastic a lot (likely polyprop--I prefer glass, but, then, I just make beer). Mebbe I'll run a little test when I get the time...

I'd have to check on the vap. temps...

Would be very nice if you could test that with top notch equipment. PP buckets are quite common as boilers in Europe and have been used in some commercial stills as well, thus the low ABV high temperature approach.

Cheers, Riku

[Harry]

Riku,

Since we're still talking about PP, here's a paragraph from Murtagh's "The Alcohol Textbook". Page 238 in the chapter on 'Tequila From Agave' says this...

<quote>
Government inspectors supervise the entire aging process. Prior to bottling, tequila is filtered through cellulose filter pads or polypropylene cartridges. Sometimes afterwards a pretreatment with charcoal is used to eliminate turbidity.
</quote>

Find it here...
http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Page 14 under 'Maturation'.

Again I don't care if people use it or not, but it's interesting info that it's used commercially as a filter for spirits >40% abv.

.

[Grayson_Stewart]

I've not weighed in on this topic and I don't want the fact I am now making a comment to be viewed as an attempt to perpetuate an argument, but the reason I became interested in this hobby is that practically everything manufactured commercially tastes terrible. So the fact the commercial folks do it doesn't really sway me to be inclined to use it.

[junkyard dawg]

does that article say that after filtering through pp cartridges it is sometimes treated with carbon to remove turbidity?

thats not confidence inspiring... or am I reading that wrong?

[Harry]

=JYD
does that article say that after filtering through pp cartridges it is sometimes treated with carbon to remove turbidity?

thats not confidence inspiring... or am I reading that wrong?

You're reading it wrong. Turbidity is a fact of life with Tequilas, as with many spirits. Final filtering is commonly used by many manufacturers to counteract this and 'brighten' the product.

In contrast, Single Malt Scotch in many cases is NOT final filtered. The components that cause turbidity (aka 'haze' or cloudiness) also impart some of the flavours. Scotch drinkers prefer them left in. Final filtering is mainly a marketing thing. Ask yourself, would you buy a commercial bottle of hooch if it looked cloudy? Scotsmen like it, most others don't.

The only reason I mentioned it was because of the use of PP as a filter material in cartridges (usually <= 5 micron). Whether they impart anything to the product, I don't know, but I'm sure the TTB with their GC's & LC's would pick it up if there was something. All the published chromatograms I've seen show upwards of 400 individual substances in spirits. But I've never seen plasticisers shown.

.

[theholymackerel]

Harry, I agree with yer statements about turbidity.

But yer statement :"All the published chromatograms I've seen show upwards of 400 individual substances in spirits. But I've never seen plasticisers shown. " seems a bit silly bein' posted in the same thread after a chemist that works in the alcohol industry stated:"In the course of my work, I've seen many, many plastic bottles with high proof spirits in them. Sent to me by the distillers. I have yet to find one sample that didn't contain detectable amounts of plasticizer.".






The only reason I'm speakin' up here again is that this argument just WON'T DIE.

If ya'll trust government and big-business studies, and feel it's safe to use plastic, then do so. But PLEASE stop tellin' others here on this board that it's safe and anyone that tells them it isn't is hardheadded and wrong.

We finally had an "expert" give his two-cents-worth. He's a chemist in the alcohol indistry and he said "In the course of my work, I've seen many, many plastic bottles with high proof spirits in them. Sent to me by the distillers. I have yet to find one sample that didn't contain detectable amounts of plasticizer." If there are any other chemists on this board that actually work in the alcohol industry, please speak up. If not, then lets all end the needless static and stick to the best info we have.

[Harry]

Hi THM,

You said

But PLEASE stop tellin' others here on this board that it's safe and anyone that tells them it isn't is hardheadded and wrong.

You're gettin' your wires crossed. I've NEVER said that it's safe. Yes I have used it, but I NEVER told anyone else to use it, just presented evidence so people could make up their own minds.

What I HAVE said is that there are documented instances of it being used in industry, and also that it has (at latest point) TTB approval.

I've said this to show there are TWO sides to this discussion. I said this because UJ put up a STICKY that said flatly (and I quote)...

Posted: Thu Dec 14, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject: using plastic

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

don't do it. there's a reason not one plastic container is FDA or TTB approved for storage or shipment of distilled spirits.

When I tried (privately first) to provide more current info re TTB, some MUCH OLDER ruling was thrown up, then the thread was locked to prevent further discussion.

You see, the issue here is NOT whether PP is safe or not. The issue is that discussion and debate on this board is censored . It is only allowable so long as the discussion goes in agreement with the management. Any dissent gets smacked down.

That's censorship of the WORST kind. Withholding or attempting to prevent relevant information from being displayed for all to see is called DICTATORSHIP. They just hung one of those fellers over in Iraq.

Tell me, what's the good of an open discussion forum if people aren't allowed to DISCUSS?

I'll say it again, this time in CAPITALS.

I DON'T CARE IF PEOPLE USE PLASTICS OR NOT !!!

I DO CARE IF FORUM MEMBERS ARE CENSORED AND AREN'T ALLOWED TO PRESENT EVIDENCE FOR PUBLIC VIEWING TO MAKE UP ITS OWN MIND.

As for the Chemists comments...I for one would be grateful if he could produce some of those printouts for viewing. That would be EVIDENCE. Then we would have better information to go on, no? It would stop the discussion dead in its tracks, AND in favor of management. BUT it wouldn't stop the nasty flavour of DICTATORSHIP.

All I and other distillers ask for is HONESTY and INTEGRITY from the boards. If we don't have that, then the boards are useless as a resource for our hobby.

.

[Tater]

harry your so full of it.Looks like to me what your saying is that youve joined a forum thats aginest the use of plastice .Are let us say a fourm of purest distillers.Purest to a point that we dont want them discussed cause some newbe might take it as ok to use.Weve never hiddin this . WEVE KINDA BEEN PROUD OF IT and hoped for a fourm of like minded distillers and if not at least we didnt suggest any plastic to them and havent harmed them in anyway.But you dont agree so were censors and [dicktaters] .Tell me harry ever delite a post or ban a poster on your forum?

[Harry]

Typical. You can't attack the constructive debate, so you resort to attacking the person (not the first time either, eh Tater?).

Fuck it. I'm done here. This ain't a board, it's a FRAUD.

Harry

ps
Make sure you leave that sticky up so people can see the outright lie that was posted to support the bullshit.

H

[masonjar]

Harry (if you're still lurking) - you're missing the point and blowing this whole thing out of proportion. You can cry foul all you want about having your freedom of speech rights violated, but you'll accomplish nothing. I hate to be the one to break this to you, but there is no absolute freedom of the speech anywhere in the world. Don't kid yourself. There are things that you can say that can get you arrested in any country. The 'right' to free speech carries an enormous responsibility, because information, right or wrong, true or lie, can HURT people. The information you post here may be obviously correct to you, but to others that information can be dangerous if a mistake is made. What if someone like myself heard you saying a type of plastic was safe and then I made some juice with the wrong kind of plastic and threw a party that put several people in the hospital. That would do nothing good for anyone here. Tater and UJ and many others here are taking the responsible and safe road by adamantly opposing the use of any plastic. If there were really any dictator-like censorship going on here, then you wouldn't have been allowed to rant on like you have - so calm down and give the same kind of respect that you regularly demand for yourself. I know you just want an open debate about truth and accurate information, but it's not going to happen. When this hobby becomes legal, then maybe we can start openly getting our hooch analyzed in labs and come back and present some solid info. Right now it's just endless banter that's seriously getting old. That's why UJ put a sticky there - because he's sick to death of talking and hearing about it. Frankly, so am I, and I am on Tater's side for ethical reasons. There are plenty of better things for us to talk about here anyway. Happy new year, everyone.

[The Chemist]

Sorry, Harry, you'll just have to trust me (or not) on this one. The data are not my property, and in all cases are proprietary to the company and our clients.

I feel that I should add that our clients do not SELL their products in plastic...that is merely for shipping to us. Saves on the shipping costs.

[goose eye]

harry you no how much weight your name carrys to new folks.
the death rate is 100% we just tryin to workout some timein for
thems that is iffy.

[possum]

Wow.
For what it is worth, I have used some plastic or modern rubber products on my rig at first, but always found them unsatisfactory.
I found that biscut dough was superior in making a nice seal, and diddent leach any flavor into my spirit.

Teflon is way inert at the Ethanol BP temp range. I don't use it, but it is not practical for my uses. If I needed to use small amounts of it in my rig, I would, but not for anything too close to flame or hotplate.

I have also seen anhydrous Ethanol in linear high density (Polyethelyne?) but I dont know enough chem or polymer lingo to safely use it for my needs, so I use glass for storage, and plastic only for fermentation, and use glass and S.S for ferments when I can.

I also run an alll copper rig. The copper is shined up below the waterline, leading me to belive that the coppper bearing corosion is put into soloution with the hot wash. The copper head is not shinned up, leading me to belive that the vapor stream does not dissolve the copper back in as well.Copper toxciscity in livestock is a issue to consider, as different animals react differently to the same levels in feed. I often use a heavy backset ratio on some washes/mashes, but I don't drink more than a tablespoon of the wash.
Copper is difficult to apply in thin film settings. It dosent vaporize easily in evaporation deposition, and has to be bonded to big organic molecules of a smoke-like colloid. Neither does Copper like to be etched away in a vaporous form in dry etching (dry etching uses corrosive vapors and plasma to etch away fine detailed structures). Cu needs physical pollishing or liquid washing with reactants to disolve the stuff.

[muckanic]

Can someone please establish which if any plasticisers are volatile in the 80-100C range?

[Stillhead]

No.

It is more than just volatility at a certain temp.

There is solubility, reactivity, time stability, leaching....

And that does not even consider the toxicity of said unknown (patented) plasticizers.

Most plasticizers would not be volatile in the 100C range.

But then most oils are not as well, but they steam distill over now don't they? That is the basis of essences, fragrances, and essential oil extractions.

Harry is right in free discussion
UJ and Tater are justified in being sick of the damned topic. It certainly is a chicken or the egg scenario in that this debate is becoming semantic.

The smartest thing is to avoid in my opinion. You will certainly be safe then............... or will you........?

At any rate, booze will kill ya before plasticizers, unless your still is made entirely out of plasic.

Then I don't know what would happen.... Maybe nothin.

[muckanic]

="Stillhead". It is more than just volatility at a certain temp.

There is solubility, reactivity, time stability, leaching....

And that does not even consider the toxicity of said unknown (patented) plasticizers.

Most plasticizers would not be volatile in the 100C range.

But then most oils are not as well, but they steam distill over now don't they? That is the basis of essences, fragrances, and essential oil extractions.

You are confusing volatility with boiling point. Volatility is what matters where plastic boilers or columns are concerned. Leaching may slowly weaken the material, but that won't poison anyone. Of course, plastic in anything downstream of the condenser is a different issue. You don't know whether plasticisers are volatile or not, but unfortunately I'm getting the vibe here that a number of people don't want to know.

[birdwatcher]

Round and round the mulbery bush. Enough already.

Dropped into the liquor store yesterday to buy some wine and dropped by to check out the vodka prices, so I could feel smug re the money I'm saving.

Guess what. Some of the vodka was in plastic bottles. The vodka was not boiling of course, but obviously the manufacturers are not concerned about storage.

have a good day.

G

[decoy]

I just browse the forums.. ocasionaly throwing in my 2 bobs worth specialy when there is a nice orange flame...

1. some spirits are packed in plastic bottles
2. high percentage of corks are made from ground cork bonded with chemical plastics or rubbers and pressed into sheets then punched.
3. inside of screw cap has plastic disc.
4. premixed drinks are in aluminium cans lined with plastic.
5. new cars leak copious amounts of plastic oils and fumes from the dash from the sun heat for years after purchase.
6. while you are fueling your car you are breating in pure oxygen.
7. while you walk down the road you are breating in pure oxygen.
8. next hamburger you have was the cow mad when they killed it with a lead bullet.
9. the next glass of water you have contains urine from the guy who pissed up the rivver after drinking spirits made from a plastic still, but we wont even worry about all the chemicals washed out of the sky in the last rain.

10. what is the last secret spice in KFC, or is it the low oil content we should be woried about.
coz i just had 5 pices and washed it down with a turkey.. should i be worried about the oil the secret spice or the alcohol.. ill ask my doctor.


I think we can accept that the world is fucked !!

open your eyes do you realy think the trace of plastic in you spirit is the thing that is killing you....

And the $125 answer to the idiot that started the thread should be you could have purchased a nice stainless or copper still for around that ammount of money that would have produced more spirits faster that tasted better, but hey your the idiot that just blew your dosh..
without reading the forum or the site you just posted on.

Or did he just cast with a small rod and a fucken big hook on it bated with a trace of plastic and real in a bunch of dumb fish.

and piss the resistance, FOLLOW THIS LINK.. http://homedistiller.org/notstill.htm#bucket
is that copper clingwrap in a stainless bucket i see..

think about it...

im back to drinking l8er ...

[junkyard dawg]

nice post, but you're missin the point...

[Stillhead]

the next glass of water you have contains urine from the guy who pissed up the rivver after drinking spirits made from a plastic still

lol

[rezaxis]

A couple months ago I posted an outline of an experiment that would prove if any given material (plastic in this case) in the vapor stream added anything to the distillate.

Would somebody with the means just step up and perform it already!

This kind of posting just divides everybody and provides no solutions.

Rez

[decoy]

nice post, but you're missin the point...

there was no missing the point, simply there are many things around that you dont know about or were you have no choice but to breath in or digest that is harmful to you in some way..

Altho copper was widly available and relativly cheep at the time distilling started with many crude methods were people got hurt as a result from alcohol being distilled in things like wooden, steel, galvenised and clay drums amongst many other materials which were sealed and joind with just as many difrant bits of crap, copper was used more and more as it was easyer to fashion the difrent still parts which improoved the quality and flavour of the output.

thru the years it was uncoverd that some methods were killing or hurting people that drank spirits from some of the early crude stills most common reason was the use of lead to join the popular material copper, studys were undertaken showing that the spirit is corrosive to many materials as well as copper but by accident the use of copper facilitated chemical recations to remove sulfur and other harmfull and bad tasting chemicals and element which resulted in purer better tasting spirits.

its proven that copper is a sacraficial material in the production of alcohol, meaning your still disapears with evry batch you make, todays distilleries are trying to push there $$$ further by useing things like stainles in there high output continuos production neutral spirits stills which result in small trace ammounts of methanol and other chemical impureties that they remove with further chemical treament to a deeamd safe level.

This is then blended in difrent quanteties with spirits distiled in copper pot stills that has been traditionaly aged in a time consuming costly fashion and you are then told its Jims special blend.

bottom line:We dont need to proove that plastic is or is not harmfull.
i think we can say if you have to use a little pice of plastic on your still so be it, but in most cases its because you are to lazy or cheap to go to the hardware store to pick up another copper elbow so you join the pipe with plastic tube.

The site is here to show and encourage people to make there spirits in a traditional and safe manner out of natural or prooven materials, that tastes good, altho some may get on the soapbox and take it to far there intentions are still good.

[beermundo]

i made a plastic still 3 years ago even helped me make some top notch absinthe,i used it as a pre still made my neutral alcahol then put herbs and alc through copper , tasted great, but to be honest iam concerned about the plastic degrading under heat with alcahol,
that brewhauas company recomend carbon to filter through a pipe.
i dont know if this would take the palastic cemicals out of the alcahol.

they say p,e. plastics dont dissolve in alcahol this maybe true becouse ive noticed in the airport they sell duty free vodka in pe plastic bottles for cheapness

any now iam going to attempt to rig up a plastic still once again,
what i do recommend though dont destill 3 times in a plast still or you will fry your nachos this happend to me once but i dont care its purely research iam doing on how best to get goosed on home made shine