uncle jesse's simple sour mash method

[Tater]

Dont know if ya have to but I cracked all the rye Ive ever used even when using it for cap on sugar likker

[Uncle Jesse]

Dont know if ya have to but I cracked all the rye Ive ever used even when using it for cap on sugar likker

i'm sure it's not a _bad_ thing to crack it

[LONEEAGLE155]

I am going to give this a try next Sunday as it is the only day (work m-f and my daughter has soccer on Sat) of the week I can devot 8-10 hours to being in my shop. This will be the first time I have ferminteted or distilled and was wondering if my mash is ready before Sunday gets here or worse say it's ready after Sunday how long can I let it sit before it will go bad.
Thanks JD

[Aidas]

Depends on whether you're doing an open ferment or under an airlock. Even if the ferment is complete, if you've got it under an airlock, you can let it stand for a long long time without it going bad.

Aidas

[Husker]

I just started my first batch of OJSM. Here is what I have done so far.

10 lb cracked corn (from 50# bag of cracked corn feed from Tractor suppy, seems a little "dirty"). I put the corn into 1.5 gallons of warm water, put on the stove, and broght the temp up to 160 (to sterilize it). Was this a good or bad thing to do?

10 lb cane sugar

6 gal water

5g EC1118 and 5g KV116 (KV116 added 12 hours later, as I thought the original 5g was starting a little slow).

Now, 2 hours after adding the extra yeast, the mash is boiling away (hurray).


I have a few questions about long term running.

1. What temps should the yeast be pitched at? I pitched at 27°C This might be nice to add this to the main wiki page. It is very important to know when "pitching" the recharged backset back into the mash. How cool does this backset need to be?

2. What fermentation temp should this run at? And, if that "varies", what side effects are there to warmer or colder running (tastes, speed, etc).

3. I assume that EC1118 (and the KV116) are acceptable yeasts. If not, what would be a "better".

4. When this run many times, do you have to add nutrients for the yeast, such as dead yeast hulls? I believe that after yeast splits X number of times, that it no longer can bud and split properly, due to lack of the amino acids which are replenished with the yeast hulls. Should some of this be added to the 2nd, 3rd, ... runs?

5. Also, the corn seemed a little 'dirty' (I think cob chips, corn leaf chips, etc). Should one try to remove these items?

6. The TSC store also had "sweet feed". Has anyone tried working with that "product"? It was much more expensive, but still only a fraction of the cost of the sugar being added, due to the amount of volume being used.

H.

[golden pond]

Cobs and leaves will float on top, no big deal, skim off if you like.

[Rebel_Yell]

Check the other additives in your sweet feed ingredients.
Cotton seed meal and salt are among the added products along with vitamins and trace minerals.

I am not sure if these will effect your desired product in any manner. I do know that they are in there....

[Husker]

Rebel_Yell
Check the other additives in your sweet feed ingredients.
Cotton seed meal and salt are among the added products along with vitamins and trace minerals.

I am not sure if these will effect your desired product in any manner. I do know that they are in there....

There was not a "true" ingredient list on the bag (that was why I was asking). It did mention, corn, oats, rye, trace minerals, distillers grain (not good, as it is spent), and molasses. I also could "smell" alfalfa (I think). The material in the bag was pretty much a single block like item, and seemed pretty solid (not like the loose cracked corn bag). I am pretty sure that was just the molasses holding everything together.

Just wondering if others had "tried" this or not. It was only $12 or so for a 50# bag, so still pretty cheap (however, that was 2.5x the cost of the cracked corn). I was more interested in what dividends the molasses would make to the brew.

H.

[Husker]

My first mash has now been going for exactly 4 days. It is still "boiling" like crazy.

What things signal when the 'ebullition' has ended? All I have done to this point was sugar washes, which I fermented to completion (about 2-3 weeks to get to about 19%). With this batch, I am only using 4.5k (10lb) of sugar (vs the 8kg I was using in a plain sugar wash). There is a frothy "foam" on the surface. I can see this, when I look through the little hole if I pull my S lock out and peer through the hole. I have not opened the fermenter yet, as I would like to not chance a contamination (since this ferment is made to run forever, or until I get bored with it, or run "out" of time). Does this frothy head "drop" when the ebullition has ended? Is that the "signal"? I know that bubbles will happen for a LONG time, if you simply allow the yeast to continue forward.

2. When starting the 2nd run, do you aerate the new water (or backset), or simply dump in water (and cooled, sugar'd backset) with little or no disolved O2 in it?

H.

[Uncle Jesse]

the crust may not fall as it does with a beer mash, so wait until things slow down for the most part in your fermenter. there's no secondary ferment with distillers mashes so you don't want to wait that long. i like to let mine rest until it 'clears up' and the crust usually falls.

i aerate my backset/water mixture before i put the yeast in. boiled backset doesn't have much oxygen to it.

[Husker]

Uncle Jesse
the crust may not fall as it does with a beer mash, so wait until things slow down for the most part in your fermenter. there's no secondary ferment with distillers mashes so you don't want to wait that long. i like to let mine rest until it 'clears up' and the crust usually falls.

i aerate my backset/water mixture before i put the yeast in. boiled backset doesn't have much oxygen to it.

Thanks for the reply UJ. Everything answered, except for one item (which may have been a mis-statement).

i aerate my backset/water mixture before i put the yeast in

You do not mean you re-add yeast? I was thinking that the yeast in the dropped lees where what fired up the next batch. That you simply put in some water (with O2 disolved it seems), to keep the yeast healthy while distilling, and then dump in the cooled, sugar'd and O2'd backset when distilling is done (and replace any spent grain if need be), and nothing else was added. Did I read the instructions from wiki wrong?

H.

[Uncle Jesse]

you're right, i was thinking of a cooked mash which i aerate before i pitch the yeast. since you arent pitching yeast, but rather are using the old barm, aerate any time before fermentation starts. in other words, i don't think it matters if you aerate your water/backset before or after adding it to the fermenter. just do it at the very onset so your yeast have that o2 to work with as soon as possible.

[Uncle Jesse]

as for the corn, as long as they aren't adding chemicals i wouldn't be concerned. i used to get my corn from large retail pet food stores (bird feed) or 'harvest' markets which specialize in 'healthy' foods. the bird food corn worked great but you have to be sure you aren't getting any preservatives! make sure the corn is perishable. as for the 'harvest' store, they have cheap, high-quality corn and rye and will order 50 pound bags for you on request. problem here is cracking the corn kernels once you receive them and that's not an easy task for some grain grinders/mills.

[muckanic]

Most of the time you can get away without aeration if you're re-using the dregs of a fresh primary ferment.

[Grayson_Stewart]

I would think so too, thats alot of corn already loaded with yeast.

[Husker]

First run is now done. Taste is surprising VERY NICE. I stripped until the resultant backset was about 1%. Started out at 12% (from backwards worked computations).

Started with 5 gal of 12% wash. Ended up with 6L of 36%. I started out with 10lb of sugar and 10lb of corn (so was more than the original recipe called for). This first ferment went for 9 full days (instead of the 3-4 days).

On 2nd run, I added 2 gallons of distilled cold water (6°C) after siphoning off the original mash. This water was aerated by 5 minutes of vigorous shaking (2/3 gallon at a time). I then added 1 1/3 gallons of backset, with sugar (about 2/3 gal at a time with 2.5 lb sugar in each, since my current still is only 4L). This was VERY heavily aerated (to the point that a heavy frothy head was on it). Topped off with about another gallon of distilled water (and last 2/3 gallon of sugared backset) the next morning. Now this run it boiling like crazy. None of my fermentations up till now has been this violent. I figure this one will finish in the 3 to 4 day timeframe.

I did not take any corn out before this 2nd run (but will be pulling out some white kernels during the run). I doubt I will add corn before the 3rd run, but will again pull out kernels during that run, and then start re-adding fresh from that point on.

I was amazed at the taste of this quickly stripped, NO cuts run. It does have some head and tail taste to it, but it is actually drinkable even in this raw form (which truely surprises me).

I plan on simply running 4 fermentations, with stripping runs, then combining all of these strip runs into a spirit run (should have my 15.5 gal still done by then with a Nixon head, and a removable column). On the recipe page, it states to use all of your first run as feints on your 2nd batch. Is the way I am simply strip running, then combing (plan on 4 batches), going to work well? I figure this is similar to adding all 4 ferments as feints, back into a "blank" run. I would assume this would make as good a quality whiskey as this recipe can create (well, still raw and unaged, but the best raw that you can make). Is this the case, or do you really "need" to put the 1st batch ferment "strip run" back into the 2nd batch (when distilling it), to get the "proper" backset for the 3rd ferment (and so forth)? Simply stripping each, and using that backset, while building up a suppy of stripped product is easier for me, since I am using such a small still at this time, but I can do it either way.

H.

PS, UJ, thanks for posting that recipe. It is VERY easy to follow, and make surprisingly good product!

[Uncle Jesse]

what you're basically doing is saving up enough low wines for a second distillation. low wines aren't usually as high quality as what you're using, but who cares? you'll get a very nice end product.

glad you enjoyed the spirit, i find it quite enjoyable.

[Husker]

Of the people who have used this recipe, how many generations have you gotten?

I just started my 3rd generation, and on this generation, the mash started furiously boiling the lock within 45 minutes of "switching" the batch. This time I had my backwash (most of it), and distilled water pretty much ready to go right after I siphoned off the wash.

Now that I have a little "built up" supply of backwash, I think I will make a small change to my process. Now, I will start with 9lb of sugar, ferment for 5 days. At the end of this time, the bubbles should be about 1 big blurp every 10-15s or so. What I am seeing, is the yeast is "growing" in the corn, and little of the bubbles are in the mash (this may be what happens when the mash sugars are spent). I will then siphon off into a carboy, and re-add my prepared sugar'd backwash and distilled water.

The carboy will then sit for 4 days or so to clear, where then, I will distill it dump it into the still, and pull out about 6L or so of 32-35% low wines, and then mix my next 9lb of sugar with 2gallons of backset. Then the next day, siphon off the next batch into a carboy to settle, and immediately fire up the main run again with properly temp backset and distilled H2O. I think things will go smoother now that I have overcome that lack of backset you have when first starting out.

H.

[absinthe]

so why don't you want the second part of the ferment to happen?

[Husker]

absinthe
so why don't you want the second part of the ferment to happen?

Uncle Jesse
the crust may not fall as it does with a beer mash, so wait until things slow down for the most part in your fermenter. there's no secondary ferment with distillers mashes so you don't want to wait that long. i like to let mine rest until it 'clears up' and the crust usually falls.

i aerate my backset/water mixture before i put the yeast in. boiled backset doesn't have much oxygen to it.

The reason I am starting proceedures like I stated, is because of this statement. What I am seeing, after 4-5 days, is the mash gets semi clear, and there are still bubbles in the air lock, but there is very little sweetness left in the mash liquid. At that time, I am pulling of the liquid putting it into glass carboys, and replacing it with fresh backset, water and sugar. The little bit of suspended yeast drops falls in the carboy in a couple days. I did put an airlock over the pulled off mash, but there was only about a bubble every 2 minutes.

H.

[Uncle Jesse]

sounds fine

do an iodine starch test if you're really worried

if you let it go long enough to start it's secondary fermentation (ie, turning to vinegar) you'll know and your mash will look ruined.

[absinthe]

ahh so it vinegar thats the problem i have never let any go that long. sorry i thought you meant the final stage o ferment when things start to slowdown as the secondary, i was mistaken

[Uncle Jesse]

I've had it happen, it's not pretty.

[absinthe]

i have just run about 60 ltrs o second and 3rd gen UJSM, stripped and run in my derefluxed still. (about 16 ltrs of low wines)

I got about 2 ltrs o heads (above 80% ABV) and about 2 ltrs of tails (below 70% ABV) now the collected product came to about 700 mls o sipping stuff.

does that sound about right?

just wondering cause its my first run of a grain whiskey, done rum a few times and lots o refluxed sugar washes.

[Uncle Jesse]

sounds low to me. only 700ml of sipping stuff with a gallon of heads and tails, right? I'd expect you to get more product than you do heads at least.

[absinthe]

so the tiny amount o drinking stuff what would cause that? to much reflux in my still? running to slow? (it was a stripped wash at about 3-4 drips a sec) any ideas? i ran it as close to the wiki recipe as i could.

[Uncle Jesse]

so the tiny amount o drinking stuff what would cause that? to much reflux in my still? running to slow? (it was a stripped wash at about 3-4 drips a sec) any ideas? i ran it as close to the wiki recipe as i could.

you using alcoholometers?

[absinthe]

of course, collected from 80% to 70%

[Uncle Jesse]

do you know what your starting and ending specific gravity readings were on your wash? seems to me that you should get more spirit from the spirit run than you got. anyone else agree?

[Aidas]

Certainly does seem that there should be more. Hell, I get 750 ML of fine drinking (40 % ABV) from a 5 liter wash, and that's on a first run. Of course, I'm potstilling, so I have no idea what a reflux would do to it.

In any case, something's wrong here.

Aidas