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I was wondering were the article on treating brass to remove surface lead is at I haven't been able to find it online? Why is this done anyways and does it need to be done on needle valves on stills before using? Not sure why they would have lead in them friend said something about peroxide??? Also just to ask if one wanted to could one use soup cans as a column for a reflux still? Noticed cambells soup cans have a yellow tint inside is this a brass coating? Finally I saw someone online said they used brass scrubbers as packing as it left no taste unlike stainless steel scrubbers do... Do ss scrubbers leave a metallic taste to distillate and were does one get brass scrubbers anyway and should they need to be treated for surface lead???

All brass fittings have a small percentage of lead added to make it machineable.
First, soak it in white vinegar, then in a solution of 2 parts white vinegar and 1 part 3% Hydrogen Peroxide. Don't leave it too long, if it turns black, start over.

No, soup cans would not make a good column. The yellow tint is a laquer to keep the contents from rusting the can.

You want copper or stainless scrubbers/mesh for packing. The least amount of brass used, the better.

lucky_jkl wrote:I was wondering were the article on treating brass to remove surface lead is at I haven't been able to find it online? Why is this done anyways and does it need to be done on needle valves on stills before using? Not sure why they would have lead in them friend said something about peroxide??? Also just to ask if one wanted to could one use soup cans as a column for a reflux still? Noticed cambells soup cans have a yellow tint inside is this a brass coating? Finally I saw someone online said they used brass scrubbers as packing as it left no taste unlike stainless steel scrubbers do... Do ss scrubbers leave a metallic taste to distillate and were does one get brass scrubbers anyway and should they need to be treated for surface lead???

The stainless doesn't leave a taste/smell. What it is most likely happening, is the copper or brass will drop the sulphites and thus remove the taste/odour. Stainless doesn't, so if your column is stainless you need to introduce some copper.
Proper Brass packing (from a reputable supplier) is lead free, and in most circumstances has distinct advantages over copper. Always buy proper brass packing, in suppliers packaging, from a good LHBS. Anything else could have come from anywhere and not be 'fit for purpose'.

could you provide a reference / citation on the lead free brass that you use?

Copper packing is well/long proven for intended use, readily available, easy to find...and doesn't have the worries associated with it that brass does. That's why brass is not normally recommended around here ...for anything (ie., assembly, or packing) — regardless of whether there are specific isolated examples of it being it otherwise ok to use under certain set of circumstances with a particular product made of a particular mixture of materials or after going through a de-lead process. Same goes for plastics, pvc, glass, etc. Use stainless or copper for build materials. And use copper mesh for packing.

If you are realistic there is a bit of 'tradition' linked to the use of brass. I personally like the appearance of brass on a copper still. Excpecially in bigger sizes like 2" straight compression couplings. YES stainless is good, Copper unions are even better but are REALY expensive - well over here they are.

Make no mistakes - there ARE valid problems with brass - but they can be fixed.

1. You can buy, or have altered, straight through unions with no end stops. Copper all the way in the vapour path.

2. Solder in a bridge of thin copper sheet into the body of the conector - so that it is all copper in the vapour path - but you still have that useful comperrion fitting

3. My preffered option these days. Put a coat of solder on the central section of the body - where it is in contact with vapour. There is a lot of solder in th vapour path sp what is wrong with a dit more?

Use whatever you prefer. It doesn't change the recommendation and reasons for making it — as you yourself acknowledged. I dont' find that being unrealistic at all.

Usge wrote:Use whatever you prefer. It doesn't change the recommendation and reasons for making it — as you yourself acknowledged. I dont' find that being unrealistic at all.

Slight missunderstanding there Usge. The 'unrealistic' comment was not aimed at you at all, but rather at the area of brass that is actually exposed to vapour in a brass connector. I think the best compromise is the unions where the copper tube can pass right through the body.
You can have both copper tubes butting up together with no brass exposed to vapour, an inexpensive connector, and the security of a compression fitting. Stainless is nice but pricy.

If I could I would chose to use a screw thread, all copper, compression fitting, as my union of choice but they are really expensive over here.

Personally I prefer flange fittings... And the lead in brass thing, never going to get the lead out.. If you cook your brass in vinegar or what ever you can still throw it in a lathe and machine it just the same (I've tried it), so the lead just doesn't vaporize itself from the material . Copper and S.S flanges are the easiest (welded or threaded) and the most proven in material and in threaded applications very easy to adapt to each other....

No misunderstanding at all myles. It sounds like you have some experience, understand the risks and how to best work around some of them. However, not everyone would fall into that category. Particularly someone just starting out eager to get started...wanting to buy up materials...and they see brass is 3 bucks and stainless/copper $$$. It's good that you post your experience in working around and minimizing issues associated with using leaded brass to save money for others who likewise understand the issues and can make use of it.

My reasons for recommending only copper and stainless are different. Lets just put it that way. If someone just starting out..wanting to know what to buy asks me a simple question....what is "safe" to use? Copper and stainless. No matter what they do with it...they'll be fine. And believe me...people can come up with all kinds of crazy ways to use things. Now..the answer for brass would be somewhat different and would come with a boat load of caveats and conditions that maybe some would understand...and maybe not.

My recommendation is not to use it. Period. And you avoid the issues all together. Most people will pay what it costs to do that. For those that can't afford it..etc...and I appreciate that...there will be workarounds..and it will take more understanding of the issues for them to successfully do that. Since that's impossible to monitor in any sort of way...the only thing I can do...as someone giving advice to someone else starting out...is to spend the money...and be sure. As I said..my advice is not going to change on that..regardless of how many workarounds there are for using brass. I hope you understand?

Lastly....if you are running 2 copper pipes into each other...doesn't matter what you seal it with. Why not save even more money and use paste — and again, avoid the use of brass entirely? That's even cheaper than brass and also has no lead..and is also part of tradition? Iv'e heard/seen all sorts of ways to work around using brass...tinning/soldering just the inside of it where it's passing vapor/distillate through, etc. And if you "de-lead it" with acid...I can only guess what happens when it's exposed to acidic, corrosive conditions in your still? I've even seen posted that it really doesn't matter if you have lead in your pot...cause distillation is how they remove lead in the first place. So, it gets left behind in the pot. That almost makes sense till you start thinking about backmashing

Anyway, my advice is what it is for different reason. I'm not misunderstanding your workarounds/solutions for using brass (which I appreciate btw)

Nicely put Usge! Brass may contain lead. Brass needs special treatment because of the possibility of lead. Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc. Zinc is a very reactive metal and poses some health problems on it's own.

Tin is the safest soft metal...safer than zinc and lead. Tin cans are steel cans coated with tin and are food safe. Pure tin will do for pipes in a still, as a solder, and as a protective coating in a stillin environment.

Bronze is an alloy of copper and tin. It's perfect for casting sculptures for the outdoors and the seaside, and is perfect for stillin. Why don't stillers use bronze?? Because the mass-producers don't care about stillers, it's all about plumbers an plumbing (the prefix 'plumb' means lead...derived from the old name of lead which is 'plumbago'). Brass is much more easier to machine than bronze specially if the brass contains a little lead for lubrication.

Stillers must treat brass with all precautions, or go strictly with pure copper, stainless, and/or and pure tin alone. If you can find or make bronze fittings then goodonya!

I thought bronze had a higher lead content than brass (depending if it's commercial, no lead or architectural which has 3 to 5% lead) ....Not sure on that though...All I know is that lead is bad stuff...I believe that I saw a discovery channel deal on the Roman empire using lead pipe for their infrastructure and literally poisoning their society and not even knowing why (This is where the term plumber came from, plumb being lead back then)... And that's with water, makes you wonder what can get pulled out and carried through steam vapor???

The larger, more general point is this...if you are using copper/stainless you know what you are getting/using. Otherwise, you just aren't going to know what the brass or bronze, etc., is actually composed of...or...how much, if any, lead is actually in it unless the seller specifically divulges this, or makes a claim — most don't, which is why you should use the same precautions on any of this stuff. It "is" possible to find specifically manf brass or bronze with no lead used in it's manf. It's also usually more expensive,...but still may be cheaper than copper/stainless. But, to be honest...if you can afford the copper "pipe" to start with...well..anyway.

Just use copper/stainless and avoid the whole thing. OR, if you live in a place or have a situation where that's just not possible, at least understand how to minimize any of the associated risks involved with proper workarounds. In that regard...the information myles, and others, have posted about this are good to have around.

You said it Usge....

I have always had a bit of a problem soldering copper to stainless. No doubt about it a stainless triclamp ferrule on a copper tube has got to be the most 'convenient' method about.

If the copper is inside the stainless it is (in theory) easier to solder than if the copper is outside the stainless. If you could find a stainless ferrule with the inner diameter THE SAME as the outer diameter of the copper you could probably get away with no soldering at all.

Use the heat/freeze technique to make an interferance fit joint that would probably be vapour tight without any other filler being required.

Now if someone could make copper triclamp ferrules, life would be MUCH easier.

OK, Until I read this thread I thought I was ready to do final assembly on my valved reflux rig. I have 2 brass needle valves for reflux and output, am I ok to use these things or not?
I also had some trouble figuring out what to do to connect the column to my boiler (SS Milk transport can) I settled on a 2" copper pipe to male thread adaptor, thinking I would simply punch a 2 1/4" hole with a knockout and use the adaptor with a home made nut cut from a 2" brass coupler. Do I need to rethink this? can it be made safe and just maintained (pickled) every couple of runs? Suggestions would be appreciated.
I have been lurking in here for quite a while, have my still all fitted up and waiting on a submersable pump for cooling before I start my first wash.
Thanks guys
Danny

SIXFOOTER, personally, I would take USGE"s advice and stay away from brass, yes you can chemically de-lead it but you will never know if you done it right or it even worked to begin with. As stated in this thread, copper and stainless are proven winners in this hobby. Just my 2 cents. MM

deleading would have to be repleted as the surface is worn away,, how often??
Id say it is best to stay away unless you know what it is. some of the new brass fittings does not contain lead.
but it would be hard to determine this on your own.

Danny, I really wish I could give you a definitive answer. For instance...what is the material composition of your brass and how much lead content does it actually have? You don't know. Nor does the person who sold it to you. If it's in the US...it can contain up to 8% lead. Or may not have much at all. That's not something they list on the product when they sell it. So it's really hard to say...sure..it will be ok...as long as you do a, b, or c. It really depends on a lot of variables. As Dnder said..there is a new brass class/designation coming here in the US for lead free or low-lead brass that has to pass a "leech" test using acidic liquid that will certainly be a safer bet than the old traditional 8% lead brass class. But it's also going to be more expensive, and harder to find initially...which negates the only advantages brass has over stainless/copper to begin with. So, I dont' see this situation changing anytime soon.

Sorry you didn't find the information sooner. It's one of those things/consensus that has been refined/elvolved over time...erring on the side of safety, and just trying to avoid things that can't be known....if at all possible. There are always going to be people who don't follow that advice...and who insist it's use is otherwise safe/ fine under given circumstances or with certain caveats. I would seek out their opinions/advice on best methods for dealing with any potential issues. I still see plenty of brass needle valves, plastic hoses..and everything else in pics posted in threads today despite the advice otherwise. So, I'm sure there are plenty out there to speak with about it.

But, if it were me...I'd just replace those things with copper or stainless.

Sorry I couldn't be more help.

Hey Guys, thanks a lot for the feedback, so it will cost me a few bucks more for SS valves, no big deal. Any suggestions as to a source?
I don't mind spending a little more for the safety factor, I am WAY over my initial budget on this thing anyways so a bit more isn't going to kill me. I Only want to build this one once, I don't mind building 3 of them, but I hate to tear down and rebuild due to poor material or planning.
Thanks again

Could just sweat on a threaded adapter to the copper and use a threaded triclamp adapter.

I just found a 2" female pipe adaptor on ebay. I'll cut it and use the threaded part for a nut on the underside of the lid.

Now for SS Needle valves...

You know, SIXFOOTER, that valved reflux column can be modified to use only a single needle valve... Doing so would make the still easier to operate as well as reducing cost of purchasing needle valves should you choose to go that route... This modification is documented somewhere here in these forums...

I thought about that, seems I could use 1 on the reflux side and be good to go. Will have to see what kind of a deal I can get

SIXFOOTER wrote:I just found a 2" female pipe adaptor on ebay. I'll cut it and use the threaded part for a nut on the underside of the lid.

Now for SS Needle valves...

Don't cut anyting just yet. That 2" adaptor could be usefull. Milk can! with a screw top or clamp on lid. Either way there is an easier fix. I have said before that I find soldering copper to stainless awkward. Dificult but not imposible.

The problem seems to be the different thermal expansion properties. If the copper is outside the stainless it expands MORE opening up the joint gap. If the copper is inside the stainless it is less of a problem.

For situations like yours I would always recommend cutting a big hole in your stainless lid and soldering in a copper plate. Clean both really well. Rivet the two sections together - use plenty of rivets to stabilise the joint - and then solder them together. You have just converted your stainless lid to a copper one, and attaching a copper column to a copper lid is nice and easy.

You need special flux and silver solder. I have found that high proportion silver (over 50%) solder makes GOOD joints between copper and stainless, but you risk overheating the stainless. As I said 'awkward', so you need to be carefull with your heat.

If you use a bulkhead type fit, (nut on both sides) might not need solder...just some paste to seal it good around the seam. If you need to solder copper to stainless..there's a thread on it. You might also want to look up electroplating copper to stainless.

This place sells milkcan stills, and lids already setup along with connectors of all kinds to do it yourself. You'll need to find someone to cut, weld your stainless lid though. Maybe they can sell you just the lid if it's the same basic milk container?? These come setup any number of ways as well.

http://www.milehidistilling.com/Still_B ... ll_s/4.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://www.milehidistilling.com/Moonshi ... es_s/5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

kiwistiller wrote:could you provide a reference / citation on the lead free brass that you use?

I am told that 3M is the USA is the manufacturer. Reference to their data sheets provides all the information desired

grogrum wrote:I am told that 3M is the USA is the manufacturer. Reference to their data sheets provides all the information desired

No references for brass scrubbers anywhere on either the US or Worldwide 3M sites using several different search terms...