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Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 7:59 am
by nh_yankee
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I have been in contact with a state legislator who will run for U.S. Congress next year. He is going to try to introduce legislation that would allow a Hobbyist Distiller license to be purchased. We expect that the license will be for an amount of tax “lost” from the state/federal revenues. (about $25 US per year. )

He would like input into what should be in the license as restrictions.

The limit on production of “wash” is to be set at the same as beer and wine production for personal use. That is 500 gallons per year. That would limit “product” to about a maximum 50 to 65 gallons of spirits per year, depending on yield.

One thing that I have gathered from this site is that any still must be made of metal, specifically, copper or stainless steel. NO PLASTIC!

The sale of any product would be cause for revocation and possible prison time for moonshining. Giving it away in small quantities (a liter or less) would be permissible.

Any other suggestions or revisions?

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:19 am
by new_moonshiner
really would be nice if that dream could come true one day for us all ... one thing comes to mind right off is safety , which I'm sure will be a issue... maybe require a safety course or something ... I know in the states here just for boating they are phasing in a safety course just to operate a vessel go figure ..

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 8:37 am
by nh_yankee
So, possibly add a distilling/safety class from a local community college or "certified" private individual/school. Great suggestion! [looking for the thumbs up smilie]

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 9:34 am
by Hack
I don't think a mandatory safety class is needed. One thing to think about is that if you have a mandatory class it adds one more cost into the process whether it's part of the license fee or an up front fee for the class. Maybe instead a safety pamphlet or something like that. I'd think that one of the benefits of this hobby becoming legal is that the information we have here would become more commonplace through hobby groups and publications. The biggest problem is that some people are going to be idiots no matter how much information and training is available/mandatory and an even bigger problem is the unsuspecting people that will drink their hooch.

The government is already losing revenue from hobby distilling, but I bet they aren't losing much compared to what they get from licensed distilling.

Just let us get a foot in the door 1st

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 1:31 pm
by harmca
Just let us get a foot in the door 1st

1892 L/500 gal of wash =530 L/140 gal of spirits way to much of tax lost to get pass.
If you get the law to let us use a 5 gal pot and 100 to 200 gal wash a year I be HAPPY.
It lot of work to use a setup like that. Get someone in your state legislator to run one just once.
There no way will he see a lost of spirits tax income income after work that hard just for a few L/Gal .


As for NO PLASTIC we all us it for holding the wash/wine and a few I seen use it as the lower pot on there still
but not with the finish spirits

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 2:14 pm
by nh_yankee
Hack,
Classes would be one time only, I think. Just a safety class with handout. (maybe a DVD of this site with the proceeds going for support...)

Harmca,
Current US law allows 500 gallons of beer or wine to be produced by the "Head of Household". (please correct me if I am wrong) but the limit to a 5 gallon still (pot or reflux) is a great suggestion!

Thank you both for the input.

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:28 pm
by goose eye
you sure 500 gal of wine a year is every where in the states

so im tole

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 3:44 pm
by nh_yankee
I was wrong. Dang the memory!

In 1979 the Federal government waived the requirement for obtaining a permit for home winemaking. However, certain regulations are still in effect and should noted. There is still a legal limit of 200 gallons of wine per year for the head of a household, or 100 gal/yr for a single individual over the legal drinking age. This wine is for personal consumption only. It cannot be sold without adhering to a number of complex U.S. and State regulations well in advance of the production operation.

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Sun Oct 11, 2009 11:20 pm
by harmca
How did it become legal in NZ
Maybe we need to learn from the New Zealand and just
Change a few words in the law we have to make it ok for us.



http://homedistiller.org/wiki/index.php/Legality" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
New Zealand
Wheeler & Willmott report in "Spirits Unlimited"

Customs Act 1996 Excise Regulation 9 "Any person who produces beer, wine or spirits for his or her own consumption is exempt from excise tax"

The NZ Customs Act is available online at http://www.customs.govt.nz/library/legi ... efault.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. The exemption for home distilling is at http://www.customs.govt.nz/manufacturer ... ptions.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow. It says: There is an exemption from the manufacturing area licensing requirement for any area you use within your private house to manufacture the following:

tobacco grown on your own land, manufactured exclusively for your own personal use
beer, wine and spirits manufactured exclusively for personal use.
What it doesn't define is "personal use". Some take this to mean that you simply cannot sell the alcohol, whilst others say that it extends to not even being able to give it away.

How did it become legal in NZ ? Ray and Des explain ...

Tom : The story of how distilling became legal in New Zealand is rather interesting. It all dates back to the last Labour Government in the mid 80's when they decided in their wisdom that Government Departments would be sold off to private enterprise, turned into State owned enterprises (companies) or in the case of Departments like Customs which couldn't realy do either, be run like businesses and make a profit where ever possible. During the redrafting of our liquor laws 1989/90 the Customs Department put it to the Goverment that if they were supposed to be business like why did they have to check on all licenced stills in the Country where they only collected revenue from the ones that made alcohol. The solution to the problem ? Make the ownership of a still no longer ilegal which they did by simply removing that section from the act. Very shortly after this became the case two bright sparks by the name of Peter Wheeler and Malcolm Wheeler (yes the same ones that wrote the book and own Spirits Unlimited) decided that if the ownership of a still was no longer ilegal then they would start selling them to the general public. This created a beautiful catch 22 for Customs, under the Customs act if you distilled alcohol you had to have a licence and pay excise tax, but the thought of policing home stills for small amounts of alcohol filled them with horror so they made an internal policy that although there was nothing to stop them licencing home stills that they wouldn't do it. This left them in another no win situation, the maximum fine under the act was $500 and consfiscation of the offending alcohol, the cost of a prosecution several thousand dollars so they didn't deem that to be an efficient use the their money either so they largely turned a blind eye to it all. After many submissions to Government (myself included) when the liquor laws where changed again in October 1996 sanity prevailed and the customs act was changed and the word spirits added into the part about brewing beer, wine or the growing of tobacco for your own use was free of excise tax. This is a pretty unique set of circumstances which are unlikely to be replicated overseas I would have thought although I believe that there is a lot of pressure for Australia to follow and we are watching with great interest to see if it happens.

Des : The situation to some extent got too big for the government to control and as the product being produced could not be faulted on health grounds (yes it was tested by "the powers that be") there was really no other choice but to legalise it. In about September 1995 it was estimated that there were close to 2000 stills, capable of producing alcohol, being used as 'ornaments' in the Auckland city alone. A number of us interested parties made submissions to our local members of parliament and the governing bodies in support of the law change. There have really been no problems and so long as it stays that way other governments may eventually see the light. However it must be remembered that alcohol production is a good, easy, and inexpensive source of tax revenue to any government. For this reason I urge all NZers to 'play the game' and abide by the rules. We have something unique to be cherished.

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 8:22 am
by Hack
A five gallon still is too small. If that was the law I'd stay illegal and keep my keg boiler.

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 1:00 pm
by nh_yankee
Hack wrote:A five gallon still is too small. If that was the law I'd stay illegal and keep my keg boiler.
Hack, Suggest a size limit, please.

Thanks for the input, I thought that 5 may be to small.

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 3:43 pm
by Hack
I run a 15 gallon keg boiler with a 5 gallon thumper. I'd imagine that a boiler limit of 20 to 30 gallons to give some leeway would be a good idea. This size will produce a reasonable amount of spirits without being too labor intensive.

I also think it would be smart to leave the subject of still design open ended to leave room for creativity.

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Mon Oct 12, 2009 5:19 pm
by JethroBodine
nh_yankee, I'm across the river in VT. Let me know this person's name and I'll tell all my NH friends to vote for them :ebiggrin: . If this goes through, I might have to move :mrgreen: .

I'm with Hack, leave out the size of the still and no mandatory classes. Sure would be nice to legally fine tune a 100 gallon still before opening a legal distillary( one less worry on that road). Also, there's no license fee to make beer or wine( for home use), so why have one for distilling( you know, " Live Free Or Die")?

EDIT: Whoops, just reread the "running for U.S. Congress" part( damn this apple pie shine is good), everything still holds except for the moving to NH part :oops: .

Re: Request for suggestions.

Posted: Wed Oct 14, 2009 2:24 pm
by nh_yankee
I usta live in NH... I am in the deep south now. Virginia to be exact. When my contact starts his fund raising i'll PM you. Thank you for the offer of support. :) :D :ebiggrin: