Home Distiller

Hello everyone.

I was doing some reading here about nutrients added to sugar washes. Everyone seems to have their own ideas about how/what/how much should be added. While reading one post, the book "Making Gin & Vodka" by John Stone was brought up. I recalled downloading this (ahem, illegally) some time ago, and decided to actually read (skim) through it.

There's not much as far as recipes go, only one procedure..and it was full of surprises. Without infringing on copyrights it basically said...

Pour 10kg sugar into fermenter
Add 50 liters of cold to lukewarm water
Add yeast
Turn on immersion heater

He explains...

The low temperature of the water, and the fact that much sugar remains undissolved, will prevent high temperatures that could harm the yeast. It is heated to 30-35C after the yeast is added.

Secondly, and the big surprise to me, was that nutrients aren't added.
Quoted:
"With this amount of yeast and the time being allowed for fermentation
(5+ days) there is no need to add nutrients."

I should mention the amount of yeast.

"To ferment 10 kg of sugar use 450 grams (1 lb) of the moist yeast in
block form or 150 grams of the dry, powdered variety"

That is basically the only mention of nutrients in the book.

Lastly, there's no mention of acid(s) or source of nitrogen being needed.

So...thoughts? Experiences?

I thought it was interesting. It certainly is simple.

Last year when i was making some 1 gallon wines of different types, i did make 1 gallon of water wine with just water and sugar and wine yeast and it turned out just fine.

ludwigs9th wrote:To ferment 10 kg of sugar use 450 grams (1 lb) of the moist yeast in
block form or 150 grams of the dry, powdered variety"

That's an awful lot of yeast.
Nutrients are normally added to allow the yeast to grow and multiply in the primary fermentation stage (population growth is exponential).
I guess that this recipe relies on hitting the wash with enough yeast right away to convert all the sugar to alcohol.
Add to that the fact that the sugar is allowed to dissolve slowly - gives the yeast time to work on it.
A little slow though. Can't really see the point of doin' it this way 'cept to prove it can be done.

I would have to agree with Cletus that the only reason to do it this way is to prove it can be done. The yeast will consume most of the sugar but they won't be as happy and healthy as they would with a little bit of some form of nutrients. I no longer use any nutrients in my sugar washes other than cooked rice with the water it cooked in. Makes a nice bed in the bottom for the yeast and the rice has plenty of nutrients in it for them. Also has the added advantages that some of it will get converted (though not much) and it seems to catch all the fallout while settling and keeps in from being easily stirred back up while racking or moving.

CletusDwight wrote:Can't really see the point of doin' it this way 'cept to prove it can be done.

Thats how my conclusions seem to be evolving also.
I recall that I may have been labeled "dismissive" as Dr. Stone is a doctor with a book and all.

Certainly no offense intended.

trthskr4 wrote:and it seems to catch all the fallout while settling and keeps in from being easily stirred back up while racking or moving.

Thats a nice tip.

LWTCS wrote:

CletusDwight wrote: Dr. Stone is a doctor with a book and all.

Ya gotta watch out with academics - theys pretty deprit for something to write about - seems it's the only way they get paid.

That is what I commonly refer to as a "brute force" recipe... When you pitch way more yeast than normal and don't add nutrients you are relying on the yeast kicking into autolysis (cannibalism) for what little nutrients they can muster from the yeast colony... This also stresses the yeast (I'd be stressed too if I was always worried that my relatives might eat me) which can produce off smells and flavors...

While not a preferred method of fermentation, it does work... Very little effort goes into regeneration of the yeast colony due to the lack of required nutrients for that process... Hence, we use nutrients in an effort to maintain a healthy and happy yeast colony throughout the entire fermentation process...

I have stopped using all that stuff for my plain sugar washes, and I don't use anywhere near that amount of yeast!
The only time I may use a miniscule amount of citric acid, folic acid, and DAP is when I am fermenting sugar beet molasses because it needs a bit more to get things going.

I do my plain sugar washes in 100 Liter batches using nothing but sugar, boiling water, and yeast culture. And I don’t use anything near the quantity of yeast that I read in the post. I just dissolve my sugar in the boiling water, wait for it to cool to about 38 degrees C= about 100 degrees F, and then I add my yeast culture. The yeast culture is just dry yeast that has been activated and allowed to grow/ multiply for about an hour. I have been doing this because I just don't want all that junk in my wash. No bad batches so far. Knock on wood.

EuroStiller- The Doctor

Hi Euro,

What yeast are you using (I use EC1118)?
It's good to hear Stone isn't way off base, I had doubts about it trying to reconcile his approach with everything I read on this site.
I've been following the herd using all the usual additives and also been have been wondering if I was doing "unkind" things to the final flavor. I've been working on the hardware to create yeast bombs with the eye of minimizing all the extras.

SB

Astrangebrew

The yeast I use for the sugar wash I actually brought over from America when I moved back to Italy and I have been importing it since. I have not found it here yet, but I am sure it is available. It is made by Crosby & Baker and is called Super Start Distillers Yeast from ALLTECH. Just typed all the infomation right off the label so I would not make any mistakes. Contrary to popular belief this yeast really does not need nutrients, just a nice warm (24 degrees C= 75 degrees F max), but not too hot, environment to flourish in very well. I have used Lavalin 1118, but the champagne yeast did not produce nearly as much alcohol as the Super Start did!! Something to consider. I usually end up with around 18%, sometimes a bit less, sometimes just over, ABV wash. With the Lavalin 1118 I never got an ABV that was ever that high! I save the wine yeasts for the wine and other things, but use the heavy duty stuff for the sugar wash. I have never used, nor will I ever use a Turbo product!!!

Good things take time!

EuroStiller- The Doctor

EuroStiller
Interesting info on the super start yeast. Being a newbie I have been tracking the temp on my lastest sugar wash with this yeast.
I keep my house kind of cold so I put two buckets on one small heating pad (50 Watts). I pitched yeast at 93 F after 24 hours the temp was 73 degrees and almost no bubbling. I added another heating pad so both buckets had a heating pad and covered them in towels to insulate. After 24 hours the temp was 76F and I was getting 10 bubbles per min from the air locks. Another 24 hours temp was 81 F and was getting 18 bubbles per min. From 24 to 48 hours later the temps peaked at 83F and 25 bubbles per min. Over the next week the temps drifted back down to 80F and the bubbles slowed to 14 per min today. SG started at 1.100 and is 1.030 now. Am I running this too warm?

Thanks
Dave

Euro,
Huh... You are getting better results than I thought possible. that's Kool dude!
EC1118 has been my benchmark for 20 years, maybe I'm overdue to broaden my horizons?
Possibly the only issue is a ferment at 15C - maybe I'm little too cool. I ran into that problem with Coopers years ago. Didn't want to do squat unless the temp was over 24C. I couldn't finish those ferments without blankets and heating collers - I wondered how much alcohol I lost maintaining those temps... (I was guessing about 1/2% maybe 1%)


Dave,
What is your volume of ferment? Your temps are hot even by Aussie standards. BTW who's yeast are you using?

SB

Daveweldz

I do not know what type of yeast you are using but if temperatures do get too hot, especially with a bakers or bread yeast, yes you can get fermentation stress issues. With the Super Start it is best to keep the temperature at/ around 75 degrees F to avoid fermentation stress problems and ensure a wash that has the least amount of congeners as possible. After that, the Super Start begins to develop off flavors, more congeners, and then you either need to distill by using a reflux still or even better a rectification still to make a clean and pure as neutral as possible. In my situation, my neutral must be absolutely odor free and as perfect as possible as it is the base for my liqueurs.

So yes, temperature is as big an issue as yeast type if you ask me. Initially all sugar washes take off with a bang then slow down. Better to keep you temperature steady and let time do its work. I have had washes take as long as 3 weeks to finish properly and sometimes as little as 1 week. Yeast is a fickle fungus! Hope this helps some. If not, ask away and I'll try to answer as best I can. So will other member of the group

EuroStiller- The Doctor

I am using Super start distllers yeast as well. last batch I did quit bubbling after about a week and yeilded almost nothing when run. I thought it was bad yeast but now wonder if it was too cold (around 68F). I have two buckets with about 6gal ea about 48 liters total

Thanks
Dave

Dave

You may have been fermenting at too cool temperature or some of your yeast may in fact have been dead and the rest was trying to compensate for it. That is why I always start a culture first, and then pitch it. This way I am assured that not only is the yeast good and going but it has already had the chance to begin multiplying, even if it is in small amounts. Don not give up just yet. You might want to try adding 1 or 2 packets of Lavalin 1118 (5g each), depending on batch size, when using the open bag of Super Start. I know a lot of people on the board will scream at me about using both types of yeast at the same time because one is a bottom fermenting yeast and the other is a top fermenting yeast! I have been doing this too long now not to have learned from my own mistakes and picked up my own tricks! I suggest this only if your bag of Super Start has been open for a while. I keep my Super Start in an air-tight canning jar in the refrigerator when I am not using it, along with the other types of yeast I use.

When I first started, I had no idea what a sugar wash was. I was making terrible stuff until Wineo posted his wash recipe. I used that for a very long time. Then I had a falling out with the group, left for a while and finally came back. My point is, do not give up on making this type of sugar wash. You will eventually find that you can do this in your sleep! Just keep notes. If it was not for my notes, I don’t think I would have gotten as far as did, as fast as I did.

Sidebar: If you look into the history of making vodka, also a sugar wash, the only ingredients used to make it were sugar, water, and yeast. Makes you think about all that other junk, huh??

EuroStiller- The Doctor

Thanks EuroStiller
Nothing replaces experience

Dave