Home Distiller

I have always put my feigns from the last of a rum run in a jug marked "Rum Oils" to save for next time I make rum and thrown out all my dunder. My wife complained about the rum dunder frozen in the freezer so I threw it away. Any time I have stored the dunder in the distilling shed it grows mold and slime. I read recently that some folks age their rum dunder (spoilage?) to get a high quality nose to their Rum.
Does this sound right to anyone?!? I just can't bring my self to try this out. The stuff I have tossed after spoiling doesn't look like anything I would want to put in my still. Or am I getting to finicky in my old age?

S&S

Hey S&S, I have a dunder pit that looks terrible too. I haven't used it yet because I'm a bit backed up at the moment. I must admit, when I open the lid it does freak me out a bit, but I will try it but I'll make sure and not lick the spoon Have you seen this thread -

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... dunder+pit

Cheers, bd.

Think Kiwi mentioned wanting to start a dunder pit when he gets settled into his new digs

there are a few threads around of people doing it already... I think myles has gotten his underway as well, and there was someone who was using it successfully.

Well I have a 200 litre screw top drum set up in the barn. Fitted a tap 1/3rd of the way up from the bottom. At the moment it is filled to just below the tap and I have another 25 gallon fermentation just about finished. It is so cold here that I doubt anything is growing in there just yet. I have even had ice in it.

Even without the bacterial fermentation I suspect just blending and ageing the dunder will be of some benefit. It certainly smells nice enough and I am not going to start using it until it is filled up.

These first few fermentations are really just to build up a supply of dunder. For now I am taking a conservative hearts cut for drinking white, and relegating everything else to the store to be turned into neutral later.

blind drunk wrote:Hey S&S, I have a dunder pit that looks terrible too. I haven't used it yet because I'm a bit backed up at the moment. I must admit, when I open the lid it does freak me out a bit, but I will try it but I'll make sure and not lick the spoon Have you seen this thread -

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... dunder+pit

Cheers, bd.

Thanks for the link. I just finished reading it and see that there are braver souls out there than me. I guess I will stop throwing away my dunder and let it funk good and plenty. I was hoping someone would say that the practice would improve the taste of the early tails in my rum distillate. When I'm making my spirit run I like the taste of my distillate from 82 degrees C to about 90 degrees C. As soon as I get to 90 degrees C the smell of tails nasty rum forces me to put the distillate with my heads for another run.

S&S

myles wrote:Well I have a 200 litre screw top drum set up in the barn. Fitted a tap 1/3rd of the way up from the bottom. At the moment it is filled to just below the tap and I have another 25 gallon fermentation just about finished. It is so cold here that I doubt anything is growing in there just yet. I have even had ice in it.

Even without the bacterial fermentation I suspect just blending and ageing the dunder will be of some benefit. It certainly smells nice enough and I am not going to start using it until it is filled up.

These first few fermentations are really just to build up a supply of dunder. For now I am taking a conservative hearts cut for drinking white, and relegating everything else to the store to be turned into neutral later.

Wow, Myles... I have only read the first two links I found in your Dunder-Pit thread and I can see the possibility of improving the quality of my heavy rum already, I'm not sure what bacteria is growing in my dunder pit... Clostridia saccharobutyricum would be my hope, but I like the idea of introducing some of the living culture towards the end of the yeast ferment. Holding a constant temp after bacterial introduction of 27 to 30 degrees C isn't going to happen in my operation (sorry guys I'm not that much of a techno guy). Never the less, I would like to see if I get the symbiotic boost to the yeast activity.

I really want to try the collection of 2nd and 4th fractions as the main body of my rum to see what I get as an end result. I have always tossed most of my feints back into the low wines which lead to a build up of the third and fourth fraction. In short I was concentrating my Fusel Oil along with my Rum Oils... NOT GOOD!!! The fusel oil smell was creeping into lower temps effectively increasing my feigns volume and decreasing my hearts volume every successive run.

I run by temperature at the head of my still because I get a true ABV reading. So on my next rum run I'm planning to collect my main body of distillate in this way:

Foreshots cut first 200ml
1st Fraction Cut... around 82 degrees C (Heads)
2nd Fraction Cut... around 93 degrees C (Hearts)
3rd Fraction Cut... around 95 degrees C (Fusel Oils)
4th Fraction Cut... between 96 to 98 degrees C (Rum Oils)

S&S

I read through Arroyo's patent information last night. (lotta stuff in there) There was specific attention to keeping the alcohol levels below certain percentage points to allow the bacteria to propagate.

http://distillers.tastylime.net/library ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

WW

Yeah, I noticed that as well. That is some serious heavy reading. It is a hell-of-a-lot to go through just to have something to pour in your Coke !!!

S&S

Slow & Steady wrote:Yeah, I noticed that as well. That is some serious heavy reading. It is a hell-of-a-lot to go through just to have something to pour in your Coke !!!

S&S

Coke Well OK I do mix with coke most of the time, but to be honest I am aiming for the golden yellow trinidad style rum. Now I admit, I am partial to rum and coke, but that good trinidad style is something else. Full of vanila, nice and mellow, sipping rum. Will not be mixing that if I get it right.

Myles,
I know you've done a lot of work with rum. Once you've accomplished this amazing feat, you be sure a mark a good trail for the incompetant and malcontents amongst the brethern here.

WW

WalkingWolf wrote:Myles,
I know you've done a lot of work with rum. Once you've accomplished this amazing feat, you be sure a mark a good trail for the incompetant and malcontents amongst the brethern here.

WW

+1 on that.

S&S

I have just run off my first distillation from my dunder pit. I have documented it on another forum, but S&S asked me to post here.

I wanted to follow the arroyo patent and do the full dunder pit thing.

So got some dunder (backset) put it in a pot, covered it with cheese cloth and left it outside under a tree. After a few weeks, I strained the dead bugs out and covered with plastic wrap for a couple of months. Its got mould and funky crud all over it, but has a sweet perfumed smell. Quite pleasant.

So I start the latest ferment with 2L from the middle of the dunder pit to make 50L of wash, 50% dunder, 2L molassses, 4kg sugar. Left for 2 days, and its got funky on the top. I have added calcium carbonate to PH correct and added baking yeast. Smells great, looks foul....

As per the patent, I'm keeping the potential %abv low for the bacteria. I will slowly add molasses and raw sugar over the next few days until the %abv is up around 12% which will kill the bacteria. Then I will run it through the thumper..

Just went and had another look. The sickly looking, moldy bubbles that were covering the top have got mixed up with the gas from the yeast, so its forming a raft of fine bubbles on the top.

Apparently the bacteria and the yeast form a symbiotic thing and helps it to ferment fast...

This is the source of the bacteria
The wash. Its fermenting well, looks better than yesterday.

Initially I left the PH low to encourage the bacteria, once it had a good hold I corrected and the yeast took off..

You cant really see it in this pic but there is a kind of film over the top...

its hot here at the moment, mid 30's C.

Put the final 4KG raw sugar in yesterday. Looks like I left it too long and the yeast population has declined, hit it with a bit more bread yeast but its going slowly. Total calculated ABV about 11%. Its looking like a normal wash now, a little filmy but fairly normal.

The smell is getting better and better, like a normal rum just much more complex and sweet. Im not game to actually taste the wash, as i have no idea whats in there.

This is where I have diverged from the patent.

I haven't used an all molasses wash and haven't heated, raised and lowered the Ph to precipitate the gums and ash. I do normally boil the molasses though.

The reason is that my understanding regarding the molasses is the better the efficiency of the sugar mill, the worse the quality of the rum. The stuff I get in Australia is very bitter and dark, so i add fancy molasses and raw sugar to try to get it closer to the cane juice rums, or at least a less efficient mill.

The Clostridia saccharobutyricum is one of the bacteria identified as improving flavor, but again my understanding is that there is a number of bacteria that produce the classic heavy rum flavors. I am starting with the old fashioned dunder pit, and will take it from there

They talk about bacteria of the propionic and butyric groups in the patent.

I started the yeast and bacteria together, the patent recommends yeast till 4% abv then bacteria up till 7%.
As my yeast is left from multiple normal rum fermentations, there is plenty of it, but the bacteria is a new thing..

The wash looks like a normal rum wash now, the film has gone. I added some wash to the dunder container, so it has yeast and bacteria now.

Smell is very heavy and complex.

Will run in the next couple of days.

Had a great suggestion though, I should take off some wash at 7% as a feed stock for my next ferment. No good taking it off now as the bacteria should be largely dead...

OK, time to run this thing.

I just put 40L of it into my boiler, with another 2L into the thumper.

Saved about 18L into a clearing cube. as a beer. I do this with my rums and UJSSM in case I get an infected wash and need to toss it out. I can then grab one of the old washes and use it as backset for a new one..

Anyway it looked like a normal rum wash. Smell was definitely different, as described earlier.

I checked the SG which I normally dont bother. 1040 which is quite high. I wasn't sure if it was from the solids or from un-fermented sugar.

So I took a little sample, and boiled the crap out of it. Let it cool and tasted it.
Not sweet, but not quite as dry as usual.

So on to the run.

Get the boiler up to temp and run off the heads,
700ml Heads
200ml Not sure

Then into the hearts.
%abv is low, normally comes off at 75% its already at 70%

Taste is impressive. Quite different to my normal rums. MUCH smoother and more complex taste. Good... Im having to stop myself sipping from the taste glass.

Interestingly it tastes less heavy than my normal rum, but that may be because I didn't add fancy molasses to the thumper as per normal. Usually I put in about 300ml.

I have run it down to 55%, will continue until 45-50% when tails start to show..
Total yield is definitely down from 4.5L per run to approx 3L on this one. I didn't measure this one out though, so it may mean nothing.

I will then do a side by side compare with my earlier rums.

Run completed, I have saved the 4th fraction (AKA Rum oils). I will taste them tomorrow and decide whether to add them directly to the rum, as arroyo does, or recycle them as per pugirum.

Time for a taste test.

The first one I have is three months old. Main flavor is molasses, with some vanilla and caramel starting to come through from the oak. Still quite fiery.

Next one is about one month old. No real oak flavours yet, tastes more of fancy molasses, (Mainly because I started putting fancy molasses in the thumper)

Todays rum, straight off the still, no rum oils added and no oak. First taste is molasses, but then I get a mixture of spicy kind of flavors. Far more complex than the earlier ones.

So there you go, experiments with bacteria and dunder.

Im sold on the process and intend to continue doing the infected washes, as it seems to taste much better. Will see how it tastes after a couple of months on oak..

Thank you Plonker, it is encouraging to hear your positive results. Waiting to hear what your opinion is with the 4th fraction.

S&S

Pity that we have two threads running on this topic. Perhaps a mod could move it all into one thread. Pretty please.

blanik

The 4th fraction went into the rum. Only trouble is that the %abv is lower than normal. Probably 58%. usually I get about 65%.

Note.. I do the 4th fraction by taste. It is supposed to run from 37% down to 30%, but if you taste it you can get the cuts right..

BTW I just tasted the last rum and it tastes really nice..

Must..stop..sampling..that..bloody..rum...

OK, round two.
Backwash went into the fermenter approx 40L, some calcium carbonate, 2L molasses, 500ml fancy molasses, 2kg sugar. On top of previous wash, with a little bread yeast added, Waterc up to 50L. Its going off..
Bacteria in 36-48 hours...

Plonker, did you check your ph, if so what was it???

S&S

I dont usually bother to check the ph. Only if its not fermenting well, and then I usually just put another tablespoon of Calcium Carbonate in the wash

My dunder-pit is growing a whitish-scale-mold(?) on top. Do I leave it or skim it off? That is the question. I added a gallon of the aged dunder to my rum ferment at hour 36 and the fermentation-trap bubble rate doubled. Still smells like molasses.

S&S

I thought the idea was to leave the mould on top, the crap on the bottom, and take the aged dunder from the middle? might be wrong on that.

That's what I would do, Kiwi. I have about a gallon of dunder sitting in the shed for my next rum wash. Trouble is I have too much fruit at the moment so can't do rum. The dunder is about six months old and has a very slight mould floating. Not enough to worry about.

blanik

Thanks for the advise fellas. I will leave the whatever (?) floating on top.

S&S

kiwistiller wrote:I thought the idea was to leave the mould on top, the crap on the bottom, and take the aged dunder from the middle? might be wrong on that.

That is how I understand it is done.

blanikdog wrote:That's what I would do, Kiwi. I have about a gallon of dunder sitting in the shed for my next rum wash. Trouble is I have too much fruit at the moment so can't do rum. The dunder is about six months old and has a very slight mould floating. Not enough to worry about.

blanik

Blanik, I have a question for you. When you smell your six month old dunder does it smell like a heavy rum, I ask because mine still smells like it did when I removed it from the still. but it is only a month old and winters chill is still in the air so fermentation is going slowly where I live. Your six month old dunder has had the heat of summer to help it along so I figure you could tell if a smell change has taken place.

S&S

Hey Plonker Its been about 8 or 9 months.... curious for a tasting update on your dunder batch....

Is it better to store the dunder in a warm area or a cooler area? I've been keeping mine in a room thats usually above 70degree F. Its winter time here now and should I keep it ward or move it out to the garage where its quite cold?

Also I have kept my dunder saparated from Fancy molasses wash and Black Strap washes..... Just my own curiousity to see if therre is any differences down the road.