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Hi. Yet another newbie who has found a wealth of knowledge on this site.

Below is my first design concept for a VM/LM still.

It will be made using predominantly stainless steel (I am aware of the expense) and will sit on top of either a 25L SS boiler with both a 1300W and a 2400 W element inside to heat up quickly. Then the 1300W element will probably be turned off and just rely on the 2400W to keep things boiling.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

Perfect, aside from two details - I'd move the reflux retun above the packing completely, and you need a reflux line from the other side of your head as well. Rig like that could probably handle more power if you wanted as well. Remember the 3" has double the area of a 2", which is good to around 2kw depending on how well you insulate. You might want to investigate reflux centering down the column as well.
Nice work,
Kiwi

Thanks Kiwi.

Bit confused by the reflux return above the packing. Are you saying that i should just have the packing a little lower? It is meant to be showing the return outlet just above the packing.

Also wouldn't the liquid just flow around from the other side of the condenser (round the sides of the column outlet), as such not requiring even more tubes?

cheers

Also wouldn't the reflux outlet centre the liquid?

Ta

Yeah. I wouldn't have the return line in contact with the packing at all, personally. the riser on the end doesn't need to be big, remember - the bigger it is, the bigger the pool you have to smear your cuts.

The reflux outlet will centre the liquid at the top, yes. Not so much lower down. You want to eliminate channeling.

OK. The reason i made a larger riser is that i thought it would hold more foreshots....? Am i wrong?

What would be the best thing to use for centreing? maybe i could put 1 at each column section joint?

A ring/collar made from a filed down reducer has been shown to work quite well.

Yes it will hold more foreshots, but the purpose of a return system like that is (at least in my understanding) to do a continuous bleed rather than act as a reservoir. I could be wrong about that, just my take on the design. If you wanted the reservoir approach, you'd be better off going for something overhead with packing below it like the ARC designs.

Lovely. Thanks mate. Will add some collars and make a shorter return.

Here is the design with the suggested changes

also forgot to add that the thermometer placement will be in the horizontal section of the 2x2x2" tee.

i'm a beginner also, but looks like a really nice design. i'm working on a 3" vm/lm right now as well, and i kinda wish that i had gone horizontal on the reflux condenser so i could do a bit more column.

the liebig seems a little undersized for the rest of the works. i went 1 x 1-1/2 x 20" on mine and i'm pretty nervous about it keeping up. my 3" pot has a 1/2 x 1 x 18" and it is very underpowered. i know that there is a big difference between the demands of VM and pot, but it's got me wishing that i'd gone a bit more robust on my 3" vm. my 2" vm/lm has a 1/2 x 1 x 23" on it, and it knocks everything down cold (the takeoff is port only 1/2" but i am getting good rates). seems like you can't really have too much knockdown power, only not enough.

i think you'll want a bigger boiler for the 3"incher. i use a 30L boiler for my current reflux rig (2" vm/lm) seems a little on the small side when i've got into a good rhythm on a run, and i wish it was bigger. got a 1/2 keg with a 5500w element/control just for my new 3" set up, and i am going to go horizontal so i can have the clearance for the vertical condenser. seems like if you are already doing a bunch of stainless/welding work, it would be easy to get into something like that.

i also really dig the parrot, but seems like it's going to be pain to insulate your column?


here's a link to my project. i am much more of a "doer" than a planner, so it's taking shape as it goes...
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=17062

i'm excited to see pics of your set up. fun stuff!

Thanks for the pointers condensificator.
The only reason i chose the liebig to be that size is due to other people who run 3" systems saying that is what they use and it is more than enough. Would be happy to use a larger size but then you also start loosing relative surface area. I will be making dimples on the inner tube to cause turbulence to both the water and the steam.

Also can anyone tell me whether i am going to loose anything by putting a reducer before the gate valve (or ball valve) and thus making it a 1 inch valve / elbow / etc.???

So have put the order in for the parts I will need. Should be starting the build in the next couple of weeks. Will post pics of progress.

OK so here is what should be the final design

Drosteo wrote: Also can anyone tell me whether i am going to loose anything by putting a reducer before the gate valve (or ball valve) and thus making it a 1 inch valve / elbow / etc.???

I don't recommend it, I think this is going to restrict your maximum output. To be safe, I would stick with the 2" for as long as possible as shown in your drawing. You might get away with 1.5" if you wanted to save a little $$.

-Loneswinger

Now that I have the VM output calculator half working I can give you some ideas. With the all 2" in the output plumbing (as drawn), the output rate will max out at around 4.5 L/hr with your design and the valve wide open. With the switch to all 1" stuff in the output, the output will max out at around 3 L/hr (1" gate, ball valve might be lower). I guess that is not too bad really and is probably as fast as you would ever want to run anyway.

-Loneswinger

i know the guys in-the-know are sold on this, but the reflux centering reducers seem counter-intuitive to me. wouldn't a constriction in the column reduce the amount of vapor going up the column? wouldn't it interfere with the "stacking" of the product? doesn't the mesh itself redistribute the returning reflux, as it is trickling down a the structure it is made of? is the "channeling" effect coming from the rising vapor, or the falling reflux, or a combination of both? is there evidence available that backs this theory?

condensificator wrote:i know the guys in-the-know are sold on this, but the reflux centering reducers seem counter-intuitive to me. wouldn't a constriction in the column reduce the amount of vapor going up the column? wouldn't it interfere with the "stacking" of the product? doesn't the mesh itself redistribute the returning reflux, as it is trickling down a the structure it is made of? is the "channeling" effect coming from the rising vapor, or the falling reflux, or a combination of both? is there evidence available that backs this theory?

Not sure about all of your questions but I can tell you that the restrictions in the column will not affect the amount of vapor going up, that is only a function of boiler power. I think the idea is that you can not make your column perfectly straight up and down so the returning reflux will tend to run down the side of the column. The centering rings force it back into the center of the packing. I don't know if evidence exists for the hobby distiller but I kind of doubt it. The theory seems sound to me though.

-Loneswinger

loneswinger wrote: Not sure about all of your questions but I can tell you that the restrictions in the column will not affect the amount of vapor going up, that is only a function of boiler power.
-Loneswinger

...so, if this is true, then i will get the same amount of vapor in the column if i have a 1/2" orifice at the boiler, then 1/2" reducers at spots in the column (at the spot shown in this drawing) as long as i have enough power to the boiler to compensate?

don't make sense.

condensificator wrote:

loneswinger wrote: Not sure about all of your questions but I can tell you that the restrictions in the column will not affect the amount of vapor going up, that is only a function of boiler power.
-Loneswinger

...so, if this is true, then i will get the same amount of vapor in the column if i have a 1/2" orifice at the boiler, then 1/2" reducers at spots in the column (at the spot shown in this drawing) as long as i have enough power to the boiler to compensate?

don't make sense.

I am sorry that it doesn't make sense but that is just the way it is. For X amount of power you get Y amount of vapor. What will happen is that the vapor velocity through the orifice will increase to keep up with the flow rate, and the pressure below the orifice will increase so that it can still push all of that vapor through the restriction at the rate it is being produced. If you make the orifice too small the vapor speed will increase so much that the refluxing liquid can't fall back through and you will end up with a flooded column which is bad. If you make it really really small, then the pressure will continue to build in the boiler until something else gives (this would be like a pin hole orifice though). I think that 1/2" would be too small. For your 3" project, just some turned down 3" to 2" reducers would suffice to keep the liquid off of the walls.

By the way, even though I am advocating the centering rings, I don't use them in my still and it works just fine. Would it be better with them? Probably a little, maybe.....still pissed about the BBQ though.

-Loneswinger

got it.

just RE your original question about centering rings, you need to make sure that the packing isn't inside the ring. This is how there can be a restriction without causing choking and flooding. Vapour speed in most centering collars gets up around 100" per second - this just shreds any larger channels of reflux that might be occuring. you don't want to reduced the area further by putting in packing, or you risk a choke / flood / puke whatever.

In my still the packing has enough friction with the side of the column to hold itself above the collar - you may want to investigate some retaining solution though.

loneswinger wrote:

condensificator wrote:i know the guys in-the-know are sold on this, but the reflux centering reducers seem counter-intuitive to me. wouldn't a constriction in the column reduce the amount of vapor going up the column? wouldn't it interfere with the "stacking" of the product? doesn't the mesh itself redistribute the returning reflux, as it is trickling down a the structure it is made of? is the "channeling" effect coming from the rising vapor, or the falling reflux, or a combination of both? is there evidence available that backs this theory?

Not sure about all of your questions but I can tell you that the restrictions in the column will not affect the amount of vapor going up, that is only a function of boiler power. I think the idea is that you can not make your column perfectly straight up and down so the returning reflux will tend to run down the side of the column. The centering rings force it back into the center of the packing.

....I don't know if evidence exists for the hobby distiller but I kind of doubt it. The theory seems sound to me though....

-Loneswinger

Sometime ago, Snuffy conducted experiments with a glass column and posted a video of the action.
He discovered that the reflux did indeed migrate towards the walls in the lower column portion. He advocated centering rings in that area.

I don't think that the "why" was answered, but the empirical evidence was there.

squidd

good enough...looks like my project just got another hundred dollars more expensive. if anyone runs across the vids, please postify.

why $100?

kiwistiller wrote:why $100?

to put in 2 centering rings on the column:

4---3" tri-clamp ferrules @ $10ea.....$40
2---3" tri-clamps @ $10ea.....$20
2---3 x 2" reducers @ $15ea....$30
safe-silv 56 solder do to 4---3" ferrules about $20.

does not include shipping, so add another $30 (conservative) since i haven't found a spot that sells both tri-clamp junk and copper fittings.


grand total: $160 give or take a few clams if i can get some trading done.

i'm already into my kids' college fund on the bitch...you say it's worth it...it's done.

Drosteo wrote:OK so here is what should be the final design

i really dig the tri-clamps. easy, good solid teflon seal, easy to solder. maybe i'll save a couple bucks and just make some "cones" out of sheet for the centering rings. might make it easier to clean and pack if they weren't soldered.

sorry to hijack your thread there Dr, but your plans have got me all worked up! i think it's gonna be awesome, and i wish i'da seen this before i started in on mine.

good luck!

make the cones yourself if it's worth $15 of your time. you've probably got some leftover 2" or 3" pipe you could hammer flat?

You don't nessesarily have to house the centering rings at the breaks if you're thinking it needs extra tri clamps. I'm sure you could come up with a simple solution to space them using copper wire.

Also, if they aren't housed at the breaks, you'd do better to move them both to the lower half of the column - say one at 2/3s the way up and one a 1/3. They're more effective (well, more needed) lower down the column. Up top, the surface tension in the reflux is much lower, channeling isn't as much of a problem.

But, it is nice to be able to break your column down into sections. I'm running the top 40% of mine right now for some light rum.

I sure hope it works.. cause it's pretty damn similar to mine, I'm screwed if it doesn't

This is my draft here - mine is 2" but apart from that looks like we've incorporated a few similar ideas.. hopefully it does well!!

Another thing - I've been thinking about your costing - you can always use an easy flange type method if you'd like to avoid paying for ferrules.