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I have a simple question for you mentors. However, I don't think the answer will be that simple.

How many of you run electric kegs and why? What advanatages? How many of you run propane fired kegs and why? What adavantages?

How much propane might be used in a cold garage with say a 12 gallon charge WPOSW and 6 hour run?

Does running electric change taste or other nuances to the finished product? I know its safer to run indoors

I am quite curious about your comments.

Doc Dave

For me:

Never run out of fuel. So that would be one less thing to plan for.
Also less expensive in my area.

Recon springing a leak seem less intimidating.

Good controller give the precision that gas offers.

I don't run electric. If I had a 220v outlet I would. I run wood or propane. If you have electric I would use it. That said a direct fired rig does give a different flavor.

everything said here is valid. Running a direct fired element can cause off flavors from burning if you run a large element wide open. same can be said if you run your burner too hot, right? i have found if i warm up at a lower power setting it is fine. (if i have a good clear neutral wash, it doesnt matter) it is quieter, however a minor issue, you dont hear the rumble of the burner. The safety part of not having an open flame is a big one as well, as is the unlimited cheaper fuel source as LW said. I think most people would like the ease of electric over gas if they had a controller that gave them the fine tuning that gas can offer. Some i understand are set in there ways and would never give up their gas. To each his own.

RD and MK,

Im having alot of fun with propane fired rig. However, I live close to a busy road and I can only open my garage door and foot or two for ventilation. I have an extra keg i could modify for electric.

With propane, I can buy a boatload and no one notices. With electric, they just installed smart meters in our area. My question is how much energy would you use on a fully charged keg at room temperature. I know the authorities sometimes get suspicious when they increased energy use at a residental home (they think it is a grow house!). MK, would your controller draw a reasonable amount of power if I made an electric rig.

DocDDave

use a Weck Canner/pasturizer. It holds 8gallon and the element is under the stainless pot and has a Stainless lid on the old ones, plastic on the new ones, so you'll have to find a old one. No open flame, and the heat is constant, just plug it in, and turn to high. The mixture will not shoot to 212 deg immediately, it rises perfectly until the alchohol is boiled off. Works great!!

docdave wrote:RD and MK,

Im having alot of fun with propane fired rig. However, I live close to a busy road and I can only open my garage door and foot or two for ventilation. I have an extra keg i could modify for electric.

With propane, I can buy a boatload and no one notices. With electric, they just installed smart meters in our area. My question is how much energy would you use on a fully charged keg at room temperature. I know the authorities sometimes get suspicious when they increased energy use at a residental home (they think it is a grow house!). MK, would your controller draw a reasonable amount of power if I made an electric rig.

DocDDave

I suppose it depends on how much you still, and how much of a spike "they" are looking for. As for my controller, its use of current is minescule. It would depend on the size of element you use. say a 5KW. if you ran that for 1 hr say to warm up, that would use 5kwh. then you turn it down to 1KW for the remainder of your run, would bring your total energy usage for that run to 10KWH. how many times do you do that? and what are the feds looking ofr for an increase in power? my 5500w keg takes about 40 min to go from room temp to boil.

at the most using a elament would be no different than taking a bath when you have a electric water heater
or maybe using a electric oven for extended time. the power companies do look for unusual power usage.
either for leaks or unauthorized usage like a 500$ bill when it has been 50-100$.
this happens much as you mite with your car if you fill up your gas tank and it is empty the next morning
your going to be looking, is some one joy riding with your car? some one stealing your gas? got a leak?

good insight dnder. i never knew how much they looked for. but my typical electric bill may fluctuate a few hundred KWH. depending on different appliances i use. 10KWH may cost you a buck or so. Try doing a run and using only a bucks worth of LP.

MK,

I'm sorry I'm so paranoid but things are a little F*#@&ed up in the Great White North. Just want to be stilling without anyone breathing down my neck. I'm thinking electric might be safer all round for me as long as I can control the output. Thanks so much from the mentors for your advice. Propane fired for now!

Thanks DocDave

No prob doc. no one judgin ya here. All very valid questions.

Based on my calculations electric is 1/4the price of propane... (electricity costing 9 cents per KwH, and propane costing 20 bucks a tank)...

Electricity = no flame...

Internal Element= more efficiency... When I run propane my garage will heat up to about 80 degrees in the winter time! That means the propane is heating my keg, PLUS my garage!

Its your call... Theres my 2 cents...

My MK5500W controller should be here any day... cant wait!

Any thoughts on a dual setup? My thought was use the propane burner to get up to temp and then maintain with electric. I don't have the experience but I can't imagine electric getting up to temp nearly as fast. The only additional safety concerns I can think of would be to make sure you have a heat shield that protects the electrical cord from the boil kettle, that or have a receptacle on the kettle that you don't plug in until you turn the propane off.

Yunus wrote:I can't imagine electric getting up to temp nearly as fast.

Gets up to temp perty dern quick with a goodly powered element.

Those long reflux runs prolly do best with the lectric.

Pretty sure we've had members heat up with gas then switch to lectric for the run.

My situation may be unique, I don't know, but for me, cost isn't a big issue. I think efficency depends on how big your boiler is (shape and size), what kind and number of burners you use, and other details of your setup. I can strip 6 gallons of wash in well under 2 hours on my propane burner. It uses up about 1 lb of propane. So about a buck per stripping run. It may well be more expensive than electric, but it's cheap enough for me on my setup. One reason I use propane is that it is more flexible. I can haul my still up that hollar over yonder and run it, or anywhere else I want to go with it. No plug in needed. Since there are no cords or connectors coming out of my boiler, I could revert to running my boiler on wood if I needed to without removing elements, cords, or plugging holes. In addition, I already had my propane stoves on hand for scalding chickens and canning outside, so I have other uses for it as well. I love me some Lady Propane.

The best solution is to just have 2 stills. Who can argue with that logic? I would like to go electric simply because I won't have to feed a fire and I'm always running out of propane. Doesn't matter how many bottles I have they're always empty.

Well docdave I am glad you brought this up, I am limited on the power I can use as well. I am not on a grid, I am totally solar and not sure if I could go electric. I do have 220v socket but have never even used it. Was planning on going propane when up and running but I sure would love to go electric for sure. I need to find out more about what my limits are with my solar system.

RD,

Your solution to make two different kegs is logical. If it gets too cold this winter, I can still inside the house. I do think propane is fun, it takes you back to what it's all about.

A question for MK, I checked my breaker box with a 40 amp circuit that is unused (run a gas stove instead). With that ampereage, am I talking about a 220V circuit? If so, I know what my next project is going to be!

DocDave

"one day today will be the good old days"

Or you can change the orifice and run off your natural gas line..Never run out, supper clean, and cheaper than propane, and doesn't register on smart meters... Might be some cost in running a 1/2" gas line, but it's worth it.

For an internal heating element (aka hot water element)

Pros:

• No gas.
• No flame.
• No carbon monoxide, etc.
• Can run indoors.
• More reliable energy source for many, (standard household power sockets can do the job in most cases, no more empty gas tanks).
• Can heavily insulate entire boiler.
• Much more energy efficient.
• Quiet.
• Convenient.

Cons:

• Mixing electricity and liquids.
• Lower maximum power levels from the average power socket than with gas, so it can take longer to heat up than with gas, which can be turned up hard.
• Can't run a boiler charge as low as with gas, as you must ensure the element is covered with liquid at all times during a run.
• Needs electrical controller (triac based zero switching is best) for smooth accurate control over power levels.
• Need an element mount of some sort on the boiler.
• Needs a power socket nearby.
• Can't still on the grain or fruit, washes must be cleared well.
• New 'smart' power meters coming in will (in principle) be able to identify patterns of power use (not just total amount used) that could be used as probable cause of stilling, if the authorities want to look for it.
• Total energy levels required are beyond the capacity of the average domestic renewable electricity system.

Over to the gas fiends...

docdave wrote:A question for MK, I checked my breaker box with a 40 amp circuit that is unused (run a gas stove instead). With that ampereage, am I talking about a 220V circuit? If so, I know what my next project is going to be!

if it was a 40A breaker running a stove, yes it is 220. Guess I have never seen a 40A 110V circuit. 40A is plenty for a good electric still.

MK,

Will a Lowe's 5500W water heater element good or should I look for a low density type? I think I will ask my better half for your controller as a Christmas present.

HookLine, I'm thinking about doing most of my stilling on the weekend, possibly during the day. I'm making the assumption that increased power consumption might not be noticed on the weekend. Does this make sense?

It sucks that Big Brother is always taking away freedoms here in the Great White North! What can we do to convince these folks that this is just a hobby like making beer?

DocDave

doc, i get my elements at lowes. they work fine. As for runnin your rig on the weekend, it would be the same as me working in the garage and running my 80gal air compressor painting a car. that thing draws alot of current and runs continuous. I think you will be fine, although i dont live in an area that does this kind of shit. Cheers.

If your really worried about the power draw being noticed you could get into home brewing as well. An electric kettle or kettle, RIMS setup or using a "heat stick" would use the same or more power.

Plus you would have a whole lot of beer as well and that's never a bad thing

docdave wrote:HookLine, I'm thinking about doing most of my stilling on the weekend, possibly during the day. I'm making the assumption that increased power consumption might not be noticed on the weekend. Does this make sense?

If they can track your power use patterns 24/7, it probably doesn't matter when you still.

Don't want to exaggerate the dangers with smart meters, but we do need to be aware of them.

i dont think they are going to be noticing that much with smart meters

these days think about it....

in summer 3kw air cons X how many in your house
heating in winter 2kw air con X how many etc
fridges, computers, ovens, pools on and on the list goes

my coffee machine is 3kw (when heating up then cycling = ?)

if i am having a dinner party = oven + coffee machine + A/C + stereo + pool lights etc etc etc maybe 6kwh ? might go one for 4-5 hours easy?

if you stilled all day on 2kw then i dont think it would even put a blip on any radar

if you were into 6kwh all day every day in a residential setting then maybe someone comes looking for your dope crop....

i am just drilling my keg for the 2.2k element recharging the battery in the drill.....

For me a needle valve for the gas is cheaper and more effective than a triac electric controller. Total heat output is one thing, but total control of the heat is more important for runnin a still. Controlling the heat is more valuable than the cost of the heat regardless of where the heat is commin from.

Depending upon how much you are going to still, That Weck Canner/Pasturizer works fantastic for a 8 gal. wash. The element is underneith built in, so most of the "Cons" that is listed above become nonapplicable. You can run it on full blast from the moment you plug it in with no voltage regulating. It takes about 45minutes to heat up 8 gallon to start getting fores. It self regulates from that point on heat wise. , and once the alchohol starts to come off, the temp rise, slows to a crawl until you get down to 30percent. There is no grain scorching like a direct element still. If you still prefer to regulate the temp better, install a router control, as it controls voltage, and does not cycle shutting your element off, allowing a constant heat. I cannot imagine a propane or fire run still that could be as consistant. It frees you up to take notes and tend to things better as well.