Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
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Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Hey guys... so I am curious if anybody else is doing this. I ran a few stripping runs on my hillbilly flute yesterday. I took the low wines and diluted down to about 20%. My hypothetical yield was about 3.5 gallons at 95%.
I added a half cup sodium carbonate (soda ash), to the low wines. I took a full quart of fores/heads. I didnt really collect any heads to reuse. Going for neutral, I just dont see the point in adding flavors back in to the mix. So I collected a shade under 3 gallons of hearts at an average of 92%abv.
At this point the plates were dry, and output basically stopped. I turned off the water to the dephlag and ran in potstill mode. I collected less than a half quart in less than 5 minutes. In this time I went from 88%ABV down to 20%ABV. This was the smelliest, nastiest, thick, tails I have ever seen... I tossed this nasty crap.
Anybody else you sodium carbonate like this to compress the tails? I'm just curious if anybody else has had results like this. For me its unbelievable. I look forward to feedback.
BGriz.
I added a half cup sodium carbonate (soda ash), to the low wines. I took a full quart of fores/heads. I didnt really collect any heads to reuse. Going for neutral, I just dont see the point in adding flavors back in to the mix. So I collected a shade under 3 gallons of hearts at an average of 92%abv.
At this point the plates were dry, and output basically stopped. I turned off the water to the dephlag and ran in potstill mode. I collected less than a half quart in less than 5 minutes. In this time I went from 88%ABV down to 20%ABV. This was the smelliest, nastiest, thick, tails I have ever seen... I tossed this nasty crap.
Anybody else you sodium carbonate like this to compress the tails? I'm just curious if anybody else has had results like this. For me its unbelievable. I look forward to feedback.
BGriz.
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Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Sodium Carbonate doesn't compress or concentrate tails.
It reduces the amount of heads if you add it to the low wines (if you add it to the wash you'll get ammonia).
Ethyl acetate (the main compound in heads) is formed in the wash from acetic acid and ethanol but when you make the low wines alkaline ethyl acetate converts back into ethanol and acetic acid again.
The acetic acid gets neutralized by the soda and forms a sodium salt (sodium acetate) which stays in the boiler. The ethanol you'll recover is collected as product.
This way you remove quite a bit of the heads.
You can also use bicarb (sodium bicarbonate) it works the same way and can be found at the spice shelf in any well assorted grocery store.
If you want to chemically reduce the amount of tails there is ways to oxidize them. I do with all my neutral washes nowadays. But that includes adding some hazardous chemicals and that kind of threads have been locked here before so I won't even try to go there.
Neutral at 92% btw... Anything below 95,6% has lots of tails and therefore can't be called neutral. Not even Vodka as it has to be distilled to 95% to be called vodka by law (well laws doesn't matter here but it's still wrong).
One guy posted this at the ARC forum, it shows how many theoretical plates it takes to achieve the last couple of percent. It goes up quite drastically as you see. Remember this is theoretical plates and inducing forced reflux can get higher percent even if you only have 4 plates in your still.
There is a reason why perforated plate column towers are so tall in the industry...
It reduces the amount of heads if you add it to the low wines (if you add it to the wash you'll get ammonia).
Ethyl acetate (the main compound in heads) is formed in the wash from acetic acid and ethanol but when you make the low wines alkaline ethyl acetate converts back into ethanol and acetic acid again.
The acetic acid gets neutralized by the soda and forms a sodium salt (sodium acetate) which stays in the boiler. The ethanol you'll recover is collected as product.
This way you remove quite a bit of the heads.
You can also use bicarb (sodium bicarbonate) it works the same way and can be found at the spice shelf in any well assorted grocery store.
If you want to chemically reduce the amount of tails there is ways to oxidize them. I do with all my neutral washes nowadays. But that includes adding some hazardous chemicals and that kind of threads have been locked here before so I won't even try to go there.
Neutral at 92% btw... Anything below 95,6% has lots of tails and therefore can't be called neutral. Not even Vodka as it has to be distilled to 95% to be called vodka by law (well laws doesn't matter here but it's still wrong).
One guy posted this at the ARC forum, it shows how many theoretical plates it takes to achieve the last couple of percent. It goes up quite drastically as you see. Remember this is theoretical plates and inducing forced reflux can get higher percent even if you only have 4 plates in your still.
Code: Select all
4 plates = 87.5% ABV
9 plates = 92% ABV
14 plates = 93% ABV
19 plates = 94% ABV
24 plates = 94.6% ABV
29 plates = 95% ABV
Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Hmmm... well thats interesting. I guess its just the way the flute operates then. I'm telling you, 90% of my wash collected as hearts. I had almost no tails.
Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
This seems as good a place as any to post this question.
How much baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) should I add to the low wines?
I have seen recommended amounts that are all over the map. My last few strip runs I have added about 1 TBSP per gallon but have no real idea why I have chosen that ratio.
How much baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) should I add to the low wines?
I have seen recommended amounts that are all over the map. My last few strip runs I have added about 1 TBSP per gallon but have no real idea why I have chosen that ratio.
Braz
Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
With Sodium Bicarbonate (Baking Soda), add 1 tablespoon per liter/quart of low wines. Let it sit for about a week. Maybe shake the jar once in a while.
With Sodium Carbonate, add 1 tsp per liter/quart of low wines. You can add it to the low wines right when its going in to the boiler. You dont have to wait for the reaction to occur.
I found sodium carbonate (soda ash), on ebay. I got a big box of the stuff for about 20 bucks. Its enough to probably last me forever! And I can use it to adjust the pH in my hot tub!
I hope this helps.
With Sodium Carbonate, add 1 tsp per liter/quart of low wines. You can add it to the low wines right when its going in to the boiler. You dont have to wait for the reaction to occur.
I found sodium carbonate (soda ash), on ebay. I got a big box of the stuff for about 20 bucks. Its enough to probably last me forever! And I can use it to adjust the pH in my hot tub!
I hope this helps.
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Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Since your 'hearts' where 92% the tails where probably smeared throughout the whole run and therefore not as distinctive at the end as if you had 95,6% hearts.bgrizzle wrote:Hmmm... well thats interesting. I guess its just the way the flute operates then. I'm telling you, 90% of my wash collected as hearts. I had almost no tails.
You should aim for a pH around 8 or 9.Braz wrote:How much baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) should I add to the low wines
Empirical research has shown that 4 tablespoons (metric, if there is any difference?) is enough for the low wines from a 25 litre wash with 6kg sugar.
Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
"metric, if there is any difference?)"
US or queen Ann's = 15ml
British =18ml
australian metric=20ml
this are approximate and very with manufacturer.
US or queen Ann's = 15ml
British =18ml
australian metric=20ml
this are approximate and very with manufacturer.
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Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Would this also apply to a copper pot still running UJSM low wines?
I have soda ash, and use the same to adjust PH when adding backset to my UJSM mash.
BUll.
I have soda ash, and use the same to adjust PH when adding backset to my UJSM mash.
BUll.
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
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Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Bull Rider wrote:Would this also apply to a copper pot still running UJSM low wines?
I have soda ash, and use the same to adjust PH when adding backset to my UJSM mash.
BUll.
No this is for neutral only, it will ruin whiskey.
Ideas are like rabbits. You get a couple and learn how to handle them, and pretty soon you have a dozen. John Steinbeck
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Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Yikes! Thanks RD...
Life is hard, it's harder when you're stupid...
Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Hi all, i'm wondering, when i use soda ash my product is very sharp in smell and taste? also in mike nixon's instruction he does NOT mention about waiting?
Wondering!
Wondering!
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Re: Compressing Tails with Sodium Carbonate
Howdy Yankle, I have yet to use the soda ash, but have my stash laid in. I don't think you need to wait for soda ash, just for bicarbonate of soda (baking soda) per bgrizzle above.
Best Drifter
Best Drifter