Wheat flour mash

[Rachiu]

I have 10 kg of wheat flour and 5 kg barley malt. I want to make some neutral spirit from it. What is the best mashing schedule for a good liquefaction and saccharification of the wheat flour?

[jake_leg]

For best results premalt and boil the flour. Search for Riku's wheat flour mash.

[Rachiu]

I read the "Riku's wheat flour mash" on this forum.
I tried a small batch of 1 kg flour with malt... I did not boiled it, just did the rests at 43, 50 and 63 degrees celsius. It became sweet and brown after saccharification but still viscous and made a lot of foam during fermentation. If the main batch will do so it's not very well

What should I do to prevent foaming?
Do you think that boiling is absolutely necessary?

[blind drunk]

A lot of foam it does make. It needs a rather huge head space. Why does it matter if it foams during fermentation?

[Rachiu]

Because it can get out of fermentor and make a mess around it.
My mash volume was one third of the capacity of the pot and it made so much foam that flowed out of the pot during fermentation, even if the head space was 60-70%.

[rtalbigr]

Some grains are bad about foamin. Several things ya can do. One is a hot break; after saccrification and before fermenting bring wort to a full boil, CAUTION, have squirt bottle full of cold water, don't turn your back, as soon as it starts to boil spray like hell to knok down boil. Cool anf ferment.

You can also use an anti-foam agent, there are several on the market, I use anti-foam from Brewhaus.

The best thing you can do is do not fill pot over half full, keep your heat input LOW. If it takes 30-40 minute at full power to get up to temps, reduce the heat input at 20 minutes to at least 1/4 power. Ya want to have just barely enough heat to get the wort simmerin, NO MORE than that.

I do a lot of AG and generally with grains that foam pretty bad. In my experience your heat control and plenty of head space is the best approach. Anti-foaming agents help some but heat control is much more important.

Big R

[jake_leg]

What should I do to prevent foaming?
Do you think that boiling is absolutely necessary?

Riku says that the boil is not absolutely necessary but does help to get proteins out of solution. These proteins are contributing to the foam. If you don't boil you might also need to use more malt to help liquefy the starch at the lower temperature.

If you have a big enough stockpot I suggest trying Riku's recipe exactly as he describes it at least once. I have a small stockpot so I have to cut the quantities in half.

[Rachiu]

I do the 50*C rest especially for break down the proteins. Why they are still there?
I think the boiling of that mash it's a big trouble because it have all chances of sticking and burning to the bottom of the pot. Thus is absolutely need stirring and rising the temperature with a moderate heat power and use a thick pot's bottom. A hammer drill with a paint mixer for constant stirring works great in this situation but I don't have.

My biggest pot is 50L capacity and I could mash comfortably 10 kg flour + 2 kg malt + 36L water. This means about 45L mash. Do you think is enough malt for a full conversion?
I do multi-step infusion mashing by adding hot boiling water to the mash and rising the temperature for the next step of enzyme activity.

[jake_leg]

Wheat flour is quite high in protein (typically around 10%). A 50 oC rest helps break up some of the protein into smaller pieces but there is plenty more there. The boil helps with the "hot break" - the proteins clump together and fall out of solution.

You are absolutely right about the need to apply moderate heat and use a pan with a thick base. This way you can heat the mash evenly without scorching.

You could do double Riku's recipe in a 50 L pot i.e. 8 kg flour and 2 kg malt. If you are not very experienced with mashing you will probably not get it quite right first time and might want to use more malt to give yourself a better chance of a good conversion. Once you get the procedure nailed down you can start reducing the amount of malt you are using. If you use the right procedures and the right malt and mash for long enough and at the right temperature you could probably get away with less malt than 2 kg. But I would not advise skimping on the malt the first time you try the recipe.

I have heard someone report success doing multistep infusion as you describe with no boil but that person was using twice the amount of malt that Riku specifies (2:1 instead of 4:1 ratio of wheat:malt).

[blind drunk]

I think I misunderstood you earlier. I thought you meant foaming while fermentation instead of foaming while mashing. I don't remember foaming while mashing to be a problem when I did it. Flour itself has enzymes so if you hold it between 120 and 140, you'll get a little extra conversion from the flour's own enzymes. I must admit I don't use time per se, but just use my eyes and the way the mash feels while I stir to know when it's nicely liquefied. The additional premalt should help prevent scorching. Mine liquefied pretty good. I also left it to cool on it's own, in an insulated box and got a decent conversion. Then I pitched. I'm gonna explore this recipe using rye flour, as soon as I get some free time. Happy mashing.

[Rachiu]

I have a stainless pot of 36L with thick bottom, ideal for boiling. I want to divide the hole amount of flour and malt in two parts, consequently I will make two identical batches and I will boil them. Probably I will ferment them separately to ensure that it has enough free space in fermentor for foaming.

I brew my own beers for about one year, with an average of one beer per month. Every beer make some foam during fermentation, between 2 and 10 liters of foam in the first 2-3 days.

You blind drunk, got it right the first time, it foams like hell during fermentation but even not a bit during mashing. But I rise a question in my mind: how will it behave during distillation? I think if I will not boil it for "hot break" (as jake_leg said) it will bring me a lot of trouble such as foam in the column and so on. What do you think?

[blind drunk]

I ran 6 imperial gallons in a 15.5 US gallon keg. I stripped it hard didn't have a problem. I then added it to a spirit run down the road. So I guess I had alot of head space in my boiler, just by chance and not by design. Give it a try, if it starts to puke, turn the heat way down and finish the run - it'll clean up nice with a spirit run. Just make sure it's all safe, like no blockages, etc. Good luck.

[jake_leg]

Sounds like a good plan, Rachiu. Sounds like your ferments will be about 30 litres each. You need a boiler that is at least 10 litres larger than that to be sure it won't puke. Adding boiling stones and oil to the boiler will help reduce foam during the strip run.

[Rachiu]

Yeah, I calculated that 1 kg of flour dissolved in water rises the volume of mash with about 0.7 L, so 5kg flour + 2kg crushed malt + 21 L water (3 liter water for each kg grain) = 26L mash. It's good for my boiling pot that is 36L.

I tried a mini batch without boiling. The foam is not worse in distillation than in fermentation. If I run it carefully (not to boil over) it will calm down quickly. But the problem is, if the wort is not distilled clear (without protein sediment) it will stick to the bottom and will burn. Therefore we must carefully siphon the fermented beer before distillation. Anyway, I think It is wise to boil the wort before fermentation.

I think it settles better after fermentation than before because the density of beer is lesser than that of wort and this helps settle better and clear.

[jake_leg]

I run a still with an electric element and just pour the fermented beer in without any kind of filtering, I don't even siphon it and it has never scorched.

Did you do an Iodine test? I wonder if the sediment contained unconverted starch. That would certainly scorch.

[Rachiu]

Interesting procedure... I don't do iodine tests. My yield was 350 ml pure alcohol from 1 kg flour.

Another problem is the fermentability of the wort. In any beer there are some residual sugars (dextrins) that yeast can't ferment. What can I do to get full fermentability from grains? I do the saccharification rest at 62*C, favorable for beta-amylase. What can I do more?

I think if I do no mashout and no boiling, the enzymes are still there and they can still work during fermentation. I read that the high maltose concentration inhibits the activity of enzymes and this deficiency is further corrected in the fermentation stage, as the yeast consumes sugar.

[jake_leg]

Another problem is the fermentability of the wort. In any beer there are some residual sugars (dextrins) that yeast can't ferment. What can I do to get full fermentability from grains? I do the saccharification rest at 62*C, favorable for beta-amylase. What can I do more?

Yes as I understand it mashing for longer at a lower temperature maximises fermentability.

I think if I do no mashout and no boiling, the enzymes are still there and they can still work during fermentation. I read that the high maltose concentration inhibits the activity of enzymes and this deficiency is further corrected in the fermentation stage, as the yeast consumes sugar.

Interesting, I didn't know that. I agree that mashout is not necessary.

[rtalbigr]

Rachiu - The enzymes will keep working at temps below 60C. I can't remember, but I'm thinkin they'll still be working down around 50C. I like to get mine in at around 63-64C then insulate really well and let it rest over night, stirring occasionally in the first couple a hours. Usually after 12 hrs my worts in the 120F range. I'm usually getting an OG around 1.060-1.070 with most of my AGs. Another thing, I always add some gluco along with the yeast. The gluco will break down some sugars while the yeast is workin.

Big R

[Rachiu]

There would be interesting if you tell us what is your Final Gravity? The OG is just about how much you dilute your mash, how much water do you use for sparging and how long you boil the wort, but the sugar profile (fermentable to unfermentables) is revealed when you take the FG, that's the moment of truth, how much maltose do you produced during mashing and how efficient you worked. Unlike brewers who want dextrins in beer for sweetness and body, distillers want to get maximum of alcohol from the grain, so a very dry beer should result.

From my experience, about 20-25% sugars from my beers are not fermentables, witch I think is a waste for a distiller. I go down to 1.01 FG but never below, that's annoying to me. Instead, sugar washes or wine, cider, mead, sake and other fermented beverages can go down well under the density of water, 0.99 if the fermentation don't stop from any unwanted reasons.

Do you think I should rest the mash well insulated to 60*C over night?

[jake_leg]

Big R's procedure is a good one. There will always be some unfermentables in an all grain mash unless you add glucoamylase. It's worth mentioning as well that some yeasts ferment drier than others, as you probably know.

[short bus]

Hopefully I can bring some new life to this thread. I am head over heels in love with wheat whisky (thin mash). I think that some of the unconverted startches carmalize in the boiler during distillation. It has absolutely great smelling spent mash! I know I can smell caramel in it. This process seems to be optimized by stirring up the sediment in the fermenter. I learned this trick by laziness, but I am sure glad I did! Of course my ultimate goal is doing it AG! Whole wheat flour is a hell a lot cheaper than the mail order malt I am using now! I wish someone wiser than I would weigh in

SB