nchooches bourbon ?

[Taterjuice]

I'm new, but I've done me enough sugar/turbo washes now to have gotten a good idea about how the distillation process goes, and get pretty well aquainted with my still, so I think its about time to do me some real whiskey. YEAH!!

After alot of reading I am planing to follow "NChooch's Carolina bourbon" thread instructions but I am a little puzzled why there is so little corn, since there is no sugar and only 10lbs of grains, will the potential alcohol be lower?....but then ....I am trying to go for quality here not quantity.

Most recipies I have looked at have had 14+ pounds of ingredients.

I have ordered some Gert Strand whisky yeast, I was going to use some Turbo 48 I had left but I read that turbo isnt a good whisky yeast.
So while I wait on the UPS man I'm trying to grab up all the "book learnin'" I can.

I have read Ian Smileys pure corn whiskey book ALOT, but it always seems that the more I look at other recipies and the such, the more I start to question if I am understanding things correctly. I have also read recipies that even as new as I am to this craft, even I can tell that they wouldnt work correctly, sooo..

Here's what I plan to do, Please add to or correct me if I am wrong somewhere. Once I get the ingredients straight, I'm gonna.....
cook corn @ +-180F for 60 min or so, adding some of the barley malt if it gets too thick,
then after 60 min @180F I'll reduce heat to 140-150F and pitch barley, after 30-45 min @ 140-150F I will put mash in cooler to keep warm and let it convert 3 hrs
while mash converts I'll get my yeast started in 1L of warm 80-90 degree water about an hour before pitching time.
once mash has cooled to below 100F I will aireate, then pitch my yeast & nutrient. and let the yeast do its thing.
then I'll run my Brewhaus PSIIHC in pot still mode and try to run it low & slow. I plan on doing a few stripping runs to get enough for a spirit run but I will experiment with the runs like they were
spirit runs. I will be working on heads, mids, and tails recognition. I think I'm starting to get it, I just need to use smaller fractions to sample
then after the first run I'll use backset for next mash and most of first run as feints on next batch....so on and so on...I think I got it? Maybe?

and Ill take some pics when I get my sweetie set back up, shame, I have to keep her locked in a tool locker like she's done somethin' bad

also looking for advice tips on using PSII in pot still mode, how much, if any, packing shound I use? Should I use tower cooling water or control heat from below
(I have triac controlled 1500w hot plate), temp is very easily controlled. Should I use a thermometer or try it "traditional style"?

[NcHooch]

In short, 7 pounds of corn and 3 pounds of barley is about as thick as you wanna try and make it in a 5 gallon mash tun.
Ya, typical yield is about 5-6%
NChooch

[Taterjuice]

all right then, I'm goin with your recipie NChooch, Thanks

[rtalbigr]

Looks to me like ya got it down pretty good. Your gonna have to stir the corn constantly cuz it's real bad about stickin to the bottom of the pot and schorchin. I use a SS stirin spatula so I can scrape the bottom good. Also, if ya pre-soak the corn overnite it'll help as well.

Big R

[Usge]

Here's what I plan to do, Please add to or correct me if I am wrong somewhere. Once I get the ingredients straight, I'm gonna.....
cook corn @ +-180F for 60 min or so, adding some of the barley malt if it gets too thick,

It depends on what kind of corn you are using and how finely ground it is. If you using cracked corn (feed corn) I can tell you right now cooking it at 180F for an hour isn't going to hardly put a dent in it in so far as breaking it down and your yields will be very low. I use flaked corn for doing this recipe which is already steamed and rolled out. Also, putting malt in after it's already up that high in temp might not work as you expect....it will denature the enzymes in the barley as soon as you toss it in. To "pre-malt" you want to put the malt in somewhere under 160F...as you are bringing it up to boil...so that it has a chance to work a little before it craps out.

I've never had good luck using mashing large grain bills of feed corn in so far as yields. First, it soaks up a LOT of water. Second, even at a finer grind, it seems to take forever boiling the snot out of it to get to disperse. There again, you loose some water. When you add starches with a lot of grain starting to break down to that...you get "glue" it a pot. YMMV. If your experience is anything like mine, you are going to have to use "more" water than you expect, and boil it for for a long time. Best method I've found for doing this with hard grains...is to pre-soak them, bring them to a boil for 2 hours, then turn off heat, cover and just let them steep for several hours. THEN bring it back up to boil...tossing in pre-malt between 150-160F on the way up. Boil for about 15 mins, then turn off heat and cool to mashing temps.

....reduce heat to 140-150F and pitch barley, after 30-45 min @ 140-150F I will put mash in cooler to keep warm and let it convert 3 hrs
while mash converts I'll get my yeast started in 1L of warm 80-90 degree water about an hour before pitching time.
once mash has cooled to below 100F I will aireate, then pitch my yeast & nutrient. and let the yeast do its thing.

This part looks fine. If you are using a 3 lbs of barley...just remember the temp is going to drop some when you put all that in. You may want to be slightly above 150F so that after you pour in 3lbs of crushed barley and stir it in good...you come to "rest" somewhere around 140-150 with 145F being optimal (if your cooler is going to hold that steady.

then I'll run my Brewhaus PSIIHC in pot still mode and try to run it low & slow. I plan on doing a few stripping runs to get enough for a spirit run but I will experiment with the runs like they were
spirit runs.

If you are doing 'stripping runs' prepping for a later spirt run...you don't want to run it low and slow. Run it fast and hot and strip it down to "low-wines". Then when you have enough "low-wines"....do a spirit run "low and slow".

I will be working on heads, mids, and tails recognition. I think I'm starting to get it, I just need to use smaller fractions to sample
then after the first run I'll use backset for next mash and most of first run as feints on next batch....so on and so on...I think I got it? Maybe

That's the idea. An easy way to practice is to make an inexpensive sugar wash and run it out low and slow, collect in 12-15 jars or so but leave what ever is in the pot. Line it up, taste/smell, make notes...maybe try blending a little out of several jars in a glass to practice and see where you are at.....then toss the whole thing back in the pot and do it all over again. This way you can get a "lot" of practice in (ie., try running faster, then slower, etc) over and over without having to wait weeks before you have enough stripped out again.

also looking for advice tips on using PSII in pot still mode, how much, if any, packing shound I use? Should I use tower cooling water or control heat from below
(I have triac controlled 1500w hot plate), temp is very easily controlled. Should I use a thermometer or try it "traditional style"?

For stripping runs use the full 1500 watts...1/2 the column...no packing, no reflux (water through the tubes in the head). DO use water through your product condesner (liebig) though!

For spirit runs...use 750watts-800watts (about 1/2 your max), then set the water flow through your reflux until you get anywhere form 3-5 drops per second...to about 10drops per second (you are looking for about 10-20ml per min depending on how much reflux you want). You can experiment with amount of packing and your reflux water flow (by monitoring your output of distillate..iel, milliliters per min. The more reflux cooling you apply, (given same heat) the slower the drip rate coming out of your distillate, the higher the reflux, the higher the abv. You can adjust heat "some" but you generally want to stay within a certain range of vapor speed...so as not to just be pushing vapor straight through. I would stick with 1/2 to about 3/4 your 1500 watts. You can vary things by taste....from there.

[NcHooch]

I'm gonna.....
cook corn @ +-180F for 60 min or so, adding some of the barley malt if it gets too thick,
then after 60 min @180F I'll reduce heat to 140-150F and pitch barley, after 30-45 min @ 140-150F I will put mash in cooler to keep warm and let it convert 3 hrs
while mash converts I'll get my yeast started in 1L of warm 80-90 degree water about an hour before pitching time.
once mash has cooled to below 100F I will aireate, then pitch my yeast & nutrient. and let the yeast do its thing.

When I mash out my Carolina bourbon, I'll cool the corn to 150, and then add the 6-row malt into the pot with the corn....check temp. If it's good, I immedaitely dump it into the cooler. Then stir every 10-15 min during the mash ,(don't wait 30-45 mins, it's gonna cool down too much).
hope that helps
NChooch

[Taterjuice]

Thanks for all the responses, I am understanding what everyone is saying.

will the iodine test tell me when the corn is converted ? w/o the barly being in there?....I mean..if I just keep cooking the corn and doing iodine tests till it (the iodine) stays brown?
Should I use a higher temp, I will be using dent/feed corn ground a little finer than cracked squirrel corn. I will soak it for a few days before cooking.

I plan on stilling this slow like a spirit run but I am not getting my hopes up for getting the cuts right, I ordered a few packs of whisky yeast so I have enough for some study batches and Ill just
re-distill what ever is left in a spirit run..............I think.

I might get some flaked maze today when I pick up the 6-row @ the brew shop and try that ..depending on price.

Im only going to concentrate on this bunch of information untill I get this down, I always have a tendancy to try and learn everything at once and end up confusing myself by getting parts of
diffrent processes mixed up ......ADHD maybe

Any ways Thanks for the help all! All help is greatly appreciated

Edit! Flaked maze doesnt need to be cooked does it? So if I use flaked maze I would only bring the mash up to +- 150F then pitch barly, return to 145F and cook for 30-45 min
to make the barly convert....correct?

[Usge]

Iodine tests only works after "conversion". If you have starches present (such as before you put your malt in to mash it), it will just turn black/dark. After you've mashed it, and there is some clear liquid on top, take a small spoon full of this liquid, and drop some iodine in it (standard tincture of iodine at your local pharmacy at low concentration works just fine). It will immediately either turn very dark, or the iodine will stay the same color (sort of brown/red). If it stays the same color..there is no starch present in the liquid (your mash is good). If it turns dark...it means there is starch still present. (hint: "ANY" solids, pieces of corn, etc...can throw it off. Make sure you only get "cleared" liquid off the top to test with).

Flaked corn is already steamed/gelatinized, then flattend and flaked. All you have to do is add water and heat it up and stir. HOWEVER, I've found it works best if you just bring it up to full boil....then turn the heat off and let it cool to mash temp. Keep it stirred so it doesn't clump up. You can use a little pre-malt on the way up if needed to keep things good and loose if needed. That's all that is needed with flaked corn. Plus, you'll find that it uses/absorbs much less water. You'll get most of what you put in back. (that's been my experience anyway).

You could also, technically, just put the flaked maize in the bottom of your fermenter/mashtun..and pour very hot water over it (beer brewers use 160-170F strike water). I would use "boiling" water and I would use the full recipe amount (6 gals). CAUTION: make sure your mash containers can handle the temp. So, put your 8lbs of maize in the cooler, pour boiling hot water over it (6 gals) then stir the snot out of it. (add pre-malt now if you need it). Keep stirring it till it reaches mashing temp (or as Dnder says..till your arms fall of which ever comes first). This gives it good time for it to gel out good. Then add your 3lbs of 6-row malt when it reaches mash temp. Stir that it in really good...then close it up and let it mash. Stir every 15 mins for the first hour or so...then just let it go/sit.

Just the time and gas alone it saves is worth the cost (to me). It also tastes good

[Taterjuice]

thanks usge, I picked me up 25# of the maze flakes and 10# 6row , That should do 3 batches

I,m gonna start out easy and save myself the frustration for later, once I get a little more skilled. just waiting on yeast, should be here thurs - fri

I'm excited to do some real whiskey! This stuff is very interesting!

[rtalbigr]

I would recommend gradually stirring your flaked maze into your heated water, and stir like hell! That stuff can clump up into a solid mess really easy. The one time I bought some I just dumped about 8 lbs in a bucket and poured in the boiling water. Damn what a mess!! I fought with that shit for about two hours, and my arm was ready to fall off.

If ya can, put the full amount of water in your bucket and then about a couple a cups of the flaked maze at a time, pour it in gradually and stir like hell. If ya can keep your temps around 155-160F you can add a little alpha amalyze to help thin it out some. When your temps fall to 145F add your barley.

Personally, I just can't justify the cost of the flaked maze. For the cost of 50 lbs of flaked maze I can buy 300 lbs of cracked corn.

Big R

[Dnderhead]

"I just dumped about 8 lbs in a bucket and poured in the boiling water. Damn what a mess!! "
add some cold water to grains then add boiling water.

[Usge]

YMMV. Feed corn you can get very cheap...but I've not seen/had good luck mashing it. Usually out of 7 gals of water...I'll get back a bit over 4 gals of somewhere around 3-4% after a LOT of work. That makes about 1/2 gal of low-wines. That means..double the amount of mashing/cooking before I get enough low-wines to run.

First time out using the flaked maize I used 6 gals of water got back most of that at 1.065! made a gallon of low-wines. I put the flaked corn in at 165F with .5lb pre-malt..then bring it to boil stirring so it didn't clump that bad. It will clump up on you if you don't stir. But then, so does corn meal.

[BFC]

I've made a few good batches of corn whiskey now , using the decoction method of heating. Bit more stuffing around but no danger of sticking to the pot or cooking onto an element. Use feed corn and malted grain at 5:1 .Sometimes malted barley sometimes malted rye,moreoften both.

[Usge]

I've never had a problem with anything sticking to my brewpot/mashtun. It's got a thick clad bottom "and" an elevated false bottom screen and my old stove just isn't that powerful

[Taterjuice]

yeahhh .......my ol'lady let me get a 40QT mashin'pot w/ false bottom, I think I'll be able to mash with this baby,

I'll get back w/ yall in the next day or so............once I start mashin!

THANKS FOR ALL THE HELP

[Usge]

There you go! Great for making beer too! Can cook up a mess of beans with one too.

[rtalbigr]

Not too long ago I got me an 8 gal megapot. That thing had a massive bottom, three layers and about a 1/4 in thick. A great investment. It has changed the way I mash to some extent. I would certainly recommend such an investment to anyone.

Big R

[jake_leg]

Edit! Flaked maze doesnt need to be cooked does it? So if I use flaked maze I would only bring the mash up to +- 150F then pitch barly, return to 145F and cook for 30-45 min
to make the barly convert....correct?

There are 2 types of flaked maize.

(1) Steam rolled flaked maize, which is what the brew shops sell and Smiley and Usge use. This is precooked, the starch is gelatinized, and it is ready to mash. Just add hot water. But as Usge says, it doesn't hurt to cook it a bit.

(2) Micronized flaked maize, which is generally what feed stores sell, so it's cheap. This is partially cooked but the starch is not gelatinized, and will need to be cooked to grits at 180F. Milling it will raise the yield, and soaking it in backset (or anything acid) for 24 hours will reduce the cooking time to a few minutes.

I have experience with (2) but not (1).

[rtalbigr]

soaking it in backset (or anything acid) for 24 hours will reduce the cooking time to a few minutes.

jake-leg - I have not heard of this before.

1) How acidic does it need to be? Would say a couple of tablespoons of lemon juice in a gal do the job?

2) What specifically is the acid doing that will reduce cooking time?

3) Will this work also with corn or just cereal grains?

Inquiring minds want to know.

Thx

Big R

[jake_leg]

Happy to oblige big R... The information is from a Pintoshine how-to on steam injection mashing. The technique is supposed to bring the cooking time for cracked corn down from 3 hours to around 30 minutes. I haven't tried cracked corn myself.

The explanation I read is that the acids help break down proteins that bind the starch. With micronized maize the flakes visibly crumble.

I've tried lactic presouring and backset, both pH 4. I expect citric or phosphoric acids would do the same but would not add as good flavour. If you are steeping the corn anyway, the low pH may help prevent some kinds of infection.

I have also tried this with milled barley after a beta-glucanase rest. The grain did break up but too much gum was produced, it was not a success.

[rtalbigr]

Thx jake. So I guess I'll have to give it a try and soak some corn with some lemon juice until I get some backset.

Got sort of a conumdrum. Got a bunch of cracked corn, some kind a wheat, and some malted red wheat. Ok, I got a Lot. But I just can't decide what I'm gonna do with it. Want to do some all wheat AG and I want to do some corn/wheat AG.

Well I'll figure it out.

Big R

[jake_leg]

Be sure to keep us posted.

I have been mashing wheat flour with barley malt. I can only do small batches but I always get good conversion and the strip has a great malty smell. But distill it again and the taste is very light. I think it might make a good gin base. I put it in an Irish type blend and it came out rather too neutral. Maybe I should have used the singlings.

[Dnderhead]

i did a little searching, to do this they use a inorganic acid, what i found mention most was hydrochloric.
as i know little of chemistry,someone else can fine tune this,this is used to make "instant"starch and used in thickening food, if you want look up "modified starch"

alkalies also work witch Iv done with out knowing it.

[jake_leg]

That's right, strong acid will chop up (hydrolyse) starch. I don't think that is really the aim of steeping the corn though, it's more to make the starch available in the first place by crumbling up whatever holds the grains together.

[Taterjuice]

I've finally got my stuff together, I'm draggin' out my equipment I'll be mashin by noon! Doin a final read thru

This is a great forum.... Thanks to all!

[Taterjuice]

waters heating up...............flaked maze and barly measured..maze8# barly 2 1/2# and 1/2# for thinning....

I think I can ....I think I can....

[jake_leg]

Go TJ!

[Taterjuice]

heres a pic!
uh-oh...how do you put in a picture?
I'll update.....gotta keep stirrin'

[Taterjuice]

startin to thicken up some...gettin ready to pitch 1/2# of barley at 145F

[Taterjuice]

thats totally wierd how it thinned out.......gettin twords 180F.....smells really good