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So I know that everyone says that if you do it right, a good neutral shouldnt need any filtering.

My last ferment didnt ferment all the way and when I stripped it and ran it through my boka, it just didnt taste the same. So I dumped it back into the stripping run of my next ferment which also didnt turn out that great.

So trying to avoid another off tasting batch, I ran my boka in stripping mode right into the parrot. Then the parrot dumps into a filter pipe made of 2" copper x 12 inches filled almost to the top with filtering carbon and the bottom has 2 coffee filters clamped on. Took a sample from the output of the parrot and from the output of the filter. Let cool to room temp and the taste difference is night and day. The 150 proof output from the bottom of the filter tasted like normal neutral compared to the harsh taste from the parrot output. I'll still do a reflux run through the boka with the low wines, but Im thinking I might try this on all of my stripping runs. Now that I think about it, if there is a bit off taste in the low wines, wouldnt you want to filter that out before you do a long slow refux run? I know its not optimal to run 150 proof through carbon, but thats only for a short portion of the stripping run before it drops more towards the recommend 100% proof for filtering.

@ vetting,

Instead of focusing your efforts on how to filter your less than desirable product you should be focusing on how to properly make fermentations that don’t need to be filtered to obtain a desirable finished product. The recipes in the ‘Tired And True Recipes’ Forum thread produce excellent results and the finished product produced in these recipes do not require and any filtering.

Regards,
Coaster

I always use the tried and true recipes - just had 2 bad ferments in a row due to temperature. I have since changed up my methods to keep my fermenters warm, so my ferments are fine now. Regardless, everyone here is so against carbon filtering but if it can improve even a good wash then whats the harm?

Vetting It's futal to get into this argument. If it works for you great. If you don't have a problem with it great. But you more then likely are not going to make an impression on the minds of the masses here. Just the way it is. So don't get your hopes up.

I personally think carbon filtering is a last ditch effort option. As of yet I haven't had a need to even think about it. So far diluting with water and rerunning has worked great for me. And if I don't like it I pour it down the drain. But I'm not going to rule it out.

Not everyone here is against carbon filtering, as PP says, is it works for you then great. But if proper consideration is applied to fermenting at correct recipes, temps, cutting and ageing/maturation, then there should be no need for it. I once asked why a couple of distilleries here filtered there product though charcoal, I was told that it got the product to the shelve faster than letting it sit another year in a barrel...

Whatever rocks your boat man. If you want to filter then go for it, just another stage in the process I can do without IMO...

I didn't say everyone Sam. I just said masses. I couldn't think of another word that would cover it.
And I remember asking a micro distiller about how they carbon filtered and why. And a few jumped in and gave him hell. And ran him off. I was really interested in finding that stuff out.

That's why I was kinda trying to warn vetting.

Hey Vetter, without entering the debate about the relative merits of filtering, you would probably be better served in filtering the finished hearts cut rather than the low wines - you might as well start the filtering process with a cleaner product. The exception would be if you require higher than 40% for macerations or whatever, in which case what you're doing will be a good way to increase hearts yield, but you'll need to replace (or do whatever it is people do to refresh) your carbon fairly frequently if you're pumping pretty raw tails through it.

My thought was that if you do stripping runs, the flow is fast and no reflux is done. If you can take some impurities out during stripping, then you wont be cooking the crap out of them when you are doing a long slow reflux run. Same principle applies to letting a wash clear really well so you dont burn/burst yeast cells in your wash. Plus its not really an extra step to do it the way Im doing it. Come right of the still, into a parrot, the parrot outputs right into the 2" carbon packed copper pipe, and then drips out the bottom into a 6.5 gallon carboy. Then this gets rerun in reflux nice and slow. If having a cleaner wash when you start makes a big impact on a neutral, then filtering the low wines as they come off just adds a means of purification before doing a reflux run.

Flame away if you like, but just throwing out a new idea out there. That is one thing that bugs me about this board. Its meant to be a collection of hobbyists that can share information in one easy location, but often people jump on others for trying something new. If learned a lot from this board and Im sure just everyone on here has found tips and tricks to make better spirits. Im sure that some of the original ideas on this board were scoffed at but now are accepted as a standard practice. The whole point of a forum like this is to provide a venue for people to share ideas and come up with new ones.

Prairiepiss wrote:I didn't say everyone Sam. I just said masses. :

10/4 PP

I dont see any flaming going on here vetting, just folks giving there advice and opinions on the pros/cons, for/against, carbon filtering...

Sorry if you got that impression...

vetting, let's not turn what isn't a problem into a problem... Let it go... Now...

Your understanding of the theories behind this hobby are the issue here, not the advice being given to you by others... Carbon filtering should be reserved for high proof neutral spirits, not stripping run low wines... Use the right tool for the job... Water is the best filter so diluting and redistilling is the right answer here... If your high proof spirit run refluxed spirits have a slight off taste or smell then and only then would carbon filtering be an option... If they are rough enough around the edges then diluting and redistilling would, again, be the best answer before reaching for the crutch of carbon filtering... Again, it should be considered an absolute last resort option for high proof neutral spirits only...

I sincerely hope, for your sake, that this is not an emerging pattern of your ongoing behavior in these forums or your stay here will be a short one... You have been instructed to do research here in recent posts so I don't think it would be proper for you to be attempting to give advice at this point in time... Take that as a word to the wise, or an official warning, whichever works best for you... Turn this into a problem and someone might be inclined to hit the vacation button...

NUFF SAID...

rad14701 wrote:vetting, let's not turn what isn't a problem into a problem... Let it go... Now...

Your understanding of the theories behind this hobby are the issue here, not the advice being given to you by others... Carbon filtering should be reserved for high proof neutral spirits, not stripping run low wines... Use the right tool for the job... Water is the best filter so diluting and redistilling is the right answer here... If your high proof spirit run refluxed spirits have a slight off taste or smell then and only then would carbon filtering be an option... If they are rough enough around the edges then diluting and redistilling would, again, be the best answer before reaching for the crutch of carbon filtering... Again, it should be considered an absolute last resort option for high proof neutral spirits only...

I sincerely hope, for your sake, that this is not an emerging pattern of your ongoing behavior in these forums or your stay here will be a short one... You have been instructed to do research here in recent posts so I don't think it would be proper for you to be attempting to give advice at this point in time... Take that as a word to the wise, or an official warning, whichever works best for you... Turn this into a problem and someone might be inclined to hit the vacation button...

NUFF SAID...

Rad, I seem to push your buttons wherever I show up. I dont mean to and apologize if I have misguided anyone. I wasnt trying to give advise - just bringing up a concept for debate.

Im not sure what I did to warrant a potential vacation. I am simply trying to throw an idea out there to see what others think. Is there something else I did besides this post? If I am not allowed to bring up topics for debate, then please inform me via PM.

In regards to my Flame Away comment - it was just a joke. It was only in response to the fact the following:
"And I remember asking a micro distiller about how they carbon filtered and why. And a few jumped in and gave him hell. And ran him off. I was really interested in finding that stuff out.
That's why I was kinda trying to warn vetting"

Someone gets run off because of a topic they bring up when others really wanted to know more.

In summary, its common process is to let your wash clear in order to prevent off flavors from burnt yeast. Doing a stripping run produces a non drinkable product and is meant to be rerun in reflux for a neutral. So I thought it would only help to have it run from the parrot into a tube of carbon in order to polish the product more.

My only intention was to bring the topic up for debate and I apologize once again if I offended anyone.

I must say that I really dislike the whole "carbon is a crutch" line of thinking.

You make cuts? That's a crutch, why don't you work at your ferments until you could keep everything coming off the still? Actually, why even distill, be a man dangnabit drink that wash straight. Don't even need to clear it.

When does something stop being just a different way of doing things and become bad?

I have used carbon on low wines and liked it. I have even used some of it as a mixer when supplies were low. I just have a hard time seeing something as wrong if it makes better than store bought.

I am a scientist, so I enjoy experimenting. I also don't believe everything I read, so if want to discover what is 'true', I will set up an experiment as a voyage of discovery. In fact, every batch of spirits I make is an experiment.

For instance, my findings have proven to me that Turbo yeasts are hype. They may produce a higher alcohol content in a quicker time, BUT if you consider the expense of the yeasts and the charcoal, and the time and effort filtering, etc, then at the end of the day there is no advantage to be had. Again, this is my opinion.

Now, if my neighbour swears by the Turbo and/or filtering method, who am I to argue? What is important to me is to produce high quality alcohol for me and my friends to enjoy. I am in a fortunate position in that I don't have to worry about the price of everything I buy, but nothing I have tried convinces me that there is any benefit to be had in using Turbo's or charcoal. If the product does not come out to my liking on the first run, I simply run it through again. And should my neighbour ask for advice, and does not accept it - then I am not going to get into an argument over it - life is too short!

Some people are good at accepting advice, and some are not. The vast majority of members here are knowledgeable and freely share their wisdom. On the odd occasion when that has been a small rift it is generally caused someone who has failed to grasp one of the basic premises of this forum, and that is that safety comes first.

Consider trying this -

Buy some cheap Vodka and run half of it through your still, making proper cuts. Run the other half of the vodka through charcoal. When finished compare each and you will find that they both taste better than the original product, but the batch that has been through the still will be far superior.

yeah,

so, Vetting...

I used to carbon filter neutrals. I had a corny keg that connected to a filter housing with a commercial carbon filter in it. I would push my low wines through this set up before doing the spirit run. It was very effective, but damned expensive to set up. I think your theory about cleaning up the low wines is sound.

The reason I started doing the filtering like this was all the dang fine carbon particles. When I tried to use carbon to 'polish' my finished distillate, it always ended up cloudy. It is sooo hard to get all the carbon out of your distillate. Filtering the low wines is the trick, then redistill and enjoy the very clean results.

Its funny that carbon generates such distress around here. This is a hobby, carbon is fun to play with. Its all about fun...

I mean, you don't need a parrot either, but they are fun to have. I don't see anyone getting their panties in a wad over parrots...

Carbon is a tool. Nothing more nothing less.

Personally I like my neutral to be very clean in taste and my whiskey rich in flavor.

I have tried several recipes, double distilled and have successfully designed a modification for my flute that helps considerably. My still does not make a tasteless vodka.

With all of that I prefer to filter my final product to achieve desired results for neutral.

I see it as no different than adding more backset to my UJSSM to increase flavor.

A rum dunder pit? Isn’t that a tool?

Live and let live as long as safety considerations are front and center. The rest is just fun experimentation and following your bliss

This being the Novice Distillers forum we should be making every effort to educate said novices on how to make distilled spirits using the least complicated fundamental methods... Part of that means not relying on carbon filtering... If they want to use it once they have a firm grasp, that's fine...

We all know how the brew shops sell kits complete with activated carbon as though it is an absolute necessity... That is the wrong message to be sending along with a new distiller as he leaves the brew shop... Call it a crutch, falsely leading a customer, or just the easy way out, whichever suits your fancy... Making decent spirits takes hard work and practice, as do most endeavors...

Our society has become far too accepting of shortcuts and that is how I see carbon/charcoal filtering as is being described here... Let's try promoting the fundamentals rather than clouding the waters - at least here in the Novice Distillers forum...

rad14701 wrote:This being the Novice Distillers forum we should be making every effort to educate said novices on how to make distilled spirits using the least complicated fundamental methods... Part of that means not relying on carbon filtering... If they want to use it once they have a firm grasp, that's fine...

I don't disagree with the idea of keeping it simple for beginners but since the OP is not a beginner and it seemed that he wanted a more advanced discussion maybe the thread should have moved to a more appropriate part of the forum.

Making decent spirits takes hard work and practice, as do most endeavors...

Not really. If you are willing to use the tools available it is much easier.

Our society has become far too accepting of shortcuts and that is how I see carbon/charcoal filtering as is being described here... Let's try promoting the fundamentals rather than clouding the waters - at least here in the Novice Distillers forum...

What are the fundamentals? Storing in charred oak barrels and/or running through charcoal have been used for centuries to smooth spirits. It was probably done before science figured out that single celled fungi were responsible for turning sugars to ethanol. Should we promote only the use of wild yeasts and stop promoting the use SS and electric heaters? Of course not those have been proven to work. So has carbon so why the double standard?

I ate a taco once!

Prairiepiss wrote:I ate a taco once!

I hope it was a softshell because if it was a hardshell then it wasn't an authentic taco.

The hard shell was in reply to Taco Bell founder Glen W. Bell Jr.'s need to serve food faster so he pre fried tortillas in U shape so he could just fill and serve.

Nothing more than a crutch I tell you.

one last comment on this,

I use carbon fitering, as i am still new to this i use it after i have tried cuts, but i still cant get the cuts right so i use it to fix my mistake,

practise makes perfect, i think carbon filtering is like training wheels, but sometimes people like to filter it anyway,

thats all fine and dandy, whatever works for you aye,

You say tomato I say tomoto I say potato you say pototo. You take the high road an I'll take the low road. And I'll be in Scotland afore ye.

Prairiepiss wrote:You say tomato I say tomoto I say potato you say pototo. You take the high road an I'll take the low road. And I'll be in Scotland afore ye.

I personally think carbon filtering is a last ditch effort option. As of yet I haven't had a need to even think about it. So far diluting with water and rerunning has worked great for me.

My experience with light brown sugar washes made up to 10%, boiled yeast, 20-20-20 and pinch of epson salt, strip-strip-strip-run in a pot still collected in 100ml lots would leave me with about 1.5l-1.75l at 40% ABV that my taste buds signed off on. I can get charcoal (have to use 10x more than activated carbon) for $0.65 a pound. I grind it put into a 1.5" SS tube and filter a wider portion of the center of a single slow run and I end up with 1.25l - 1.5l at 40%ABV of distillate that tastes good to me.

Propane costs me a little over $2 a run so diluting and running again costs me three times as much and takes more time babysitting the still in comparison to the set and forget of filtering and filtering gets me about the same amount of distillate from a single run than 4 runs without.

Those are my personal real world numbers. It isn't a crutch, a last ditch effort or brewhouse marketing. It is an informed and thought out decision. If other members of the HD, newbs or not, have similar numbers then they may wish to try it and see if it is to their liking instead of automatically being routed to a more expensive, less efficient way because of a romanticized view of distilling.

So yes I don't need to use it but after crunching the numbers it would be dumb not to.

Bagasso what are you trying to make with that wash? That sounds more like a rum wash not a neutral wash? Brown sugar is going to make more of a rum wash. Which will have a flavor that you are spending all your time trying to get rid of?

Reading over this thread (not aimed at anyone in particular), I have now found a practical example to explain and support the term - 'mental masturbation' to my students.

Thank you all!

General household sugar in my country has a sandy to light brown color to it. I also run a pot still. I'm not trying to make neutral but I don't care if filtering gets rid of flavor along with the nasties. I want good clean spirits. No flavor or good flavor is fine with me.

Most of all I want more bang for my buck. Who doesn't? And while greed is a bad thing in this hobby leaving 60% or more of the available ethanol in the feints jar or in the pot I think is a good example of restraining that monster.

I'm not spending all my time trying to get rid of the flavor I'm actually spending less time and money widening the kept portion of my distillate.

Ian Jay wrote:Reading over this thread (not aimed at anyone in particular), I have now found a practical example to explain and support the term - 'mental masturbation' to my students.

Thank you all!

Another teacher amongst us, I am retired we used to call it bird walking but I think you must be referring to spontaneous brainstorming.

Bagasso wrote:General household sugar in my country has a sandy to light brown color to it. I also run a pot still. I'm not trying to make neutral but I don't care if filtering gets rid of flavor along with the nasties. I want good clean spirits. No flavor or good flavor is fine with me.

Most of all I want more bang for my buck. Who doesn't? And while greed is a bad thing in this hobby leaving 60% or more of the available ethanol in the feints jar or in the pot I think is a good example of restraining that monster.

I'm not spending all my time trying to get rid of the flavor I'm actually spending less time and money widening the kept portion of my distillate.

Sandy to light brown sugar sounds more like organic sugar.

It varies alot. Sometimes it's just a bit off-white but most of the time it's a little darker then the images of organic that google brought up.