Apples and methanol

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:22 am

Lithuania usually has a bumper crop of apples each fall, so the juice is incredibly cheap and readily available from neighbors or local farmers (plus, it's eco!). I've made a number of nice apple wines and now turned some of them into a very nice calvados. Everything I've made was made from whole apples, washed, ground and pressed/juiced.

All the recipes I've read express a significant amount of concern regarding methanol in apple wine/wash, even going so far as to call for de-pipping (removing the seeds) to prevent more methanol from forming.

I was thinking - isn't it moot? I mean with generous foreshots and heads discarding, don't we discard the methanol that was created anyway? The hearts don't have the meth, as they've already been distilled at the lower temps. Or isn't that the case?

Aidas

Post by **Tater** » Wed May 31, 2006 9:25 am

All I do is watch my cuts with apples.Theyve allways came out fine

Bujapat · Post by **Bujapat** » Wed May 31, 2006 10:55 am

Methanol is in the forecuts... Just discard enough. Never had any problem with apples... And I like that spirit!

Watershed · Post by **Watershed** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:25 am

The wild yeast on apples can sometimes include things that ferment to methanol but you shouldn't have a problem if you make your cuts sensibly anyhow. I put the whole damned lot in when doing apples - core, skin and grubs.

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:46 am

That's what I figured... though it's always nice to get reaffirmation from this forum.

It seems that methanol is such a scary subject that oftentimes its danger is overrated to the point of being silly. The science part of distilling (temperature, especially) takes care of that problem without any worry.

Aidas

Swag · Post by **Swag** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 10:58 am

The wild yeast on apples can sometimes include things that ferment to methanol but you shouldn't have a problem if you make your cuts sensibly anyhow. I put the whole damned lot in when doing apples - core, skin and grubs.

Grubs can provide criticle nutrients for the yeasties. Some oldtimers would toss a piece of chicken in the wash to stimulate the yeast. Same idea-nutrients.
I also think methanol is over hyped. It should be pretty much eliminated in the forshots and there won't be any after the heads. Even then the human body can handle small amounts with no long term effects (you might get a headache, but it will go away).

From the Mother site: "Orange juice contains 10 to 50 times as much methanol as sugarmash.

The lethal dose of methanol is at least 100 ml that is equal to about 80000 mg or you need 27000 liters of mash at least to get that amount.
Dietary surveys have shown that an extreme consumer of orange juice drinks slightly over 2 litres/day. The estimated maximum intake of methanol based on this consumption would be 455 mg for a 60 kg adult which is below the maximum advisory intake of 600 mg per day for a 60 kg adult, recommended by the Department of Health."

So if we stay under 600 mg per day we are safe, that's the same as 200 liters of mash per day or about 70 liters of 40% alcohol per day if you weight is 60 kg.

total amount of methanol in mash expressed in ml is about 0.1 ml = nothing."

http://homedistiller.org/intro/methanol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Post by **Fourway** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:45 pm

Some oldtimers would toss a piece of chicken in the wash to stimulate the yeast. Same idea-nutrients.

Ive never heard an actual old timer tell this one.

I've heard it second and third hand plenty.

I'm willing to wager though that if you throw a raw chicken leg into a starting out mash when you pitch that it won't go right at all.
I'm guessing you'll wind up with something that smells like a bucket of rotting teeth.

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 7:59 pm

I've only made apple brandy once which turned out very nice. I ground and brought the apple sauce to a boil to kill off any wild yeast. Added more water and when it cooled enough threw in bakers yeast. It was working within the hour. after it had finished fermenting I strained out the pulp and ran it through the pot still twice. Like Bujapat and Tater said pay attention to your cuts and you'll be fine. ....oh yeah I think I would skip the chicken, but that's just me

Swag · Post by **Swag** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 8:31 pm

Ive never heard an actual old timer tell this one.

I've heard it second and third hand plenty.

I'm willing to wager though that if you throw a raw chicken leg into a starting out mash when you pitch that it won't go right at all.
I'm guessing you'll wind up with something that smells like a bucket of rotting teeth.

I read that in a book and wouldn't recommend it to anyone!
People also used to put dynamite in their washes to stimulate the yeast. The nitro is a heart stimulant and I guess it works the same way on the yeasties.
Dynamite also will give you a nasty headache. But then that was before people really understood what yeast needed. We are fortunate to be as enlightened as we are.

Watershed · Post by **Watershed** » Thu Jun 01, 2006 11:32 pm

Cock ale was a relatively common brew way back in the 17thC but the bird was cooked in the wort. A lot of traditional scrumpy ( cloudy, spontaneously fermented cider ) recipes included meat of some form - ox heads were quite common, I've seen modern recreations using minced beef ( but never tried one ). The acidity goes some way to stop the meat from spoiling and basicaly if the meat isn't rotten when the fermenting's done then the drink is safe.

It stemmed from the idea that you had to feed the yeast ( aside fromt he nutrients present in the wort ) - usualy this was done by chucking in flour and salt on a regular basis but clearly some folks thought a nice steak might work better. In some areas where open fermentation was the practise it was reckoned that rats drowing in the vat did the same job ( now that kind of brew I have tried - it was fine ).

I often include ox blood ( and once in a while deer blood ) in my rum ferments.

Dunno what effect dynamite would really have - it's chalk and nitroglycerine, chalk has had extensive use in brewing anyhow, the nitroglycerine probably breaks down to nitrates and gives the yeast a little more nitrogen source - anyone want to try?

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:05 am

I think I'll steer clear of dynamite and rotten meat in my washes, thank you.

Actually, when you think about it, a packet of yeast or yeast nutrient (about 1 Euro or less) costs a hell of a lot less than a nice steak, or a chicken...

I say, eat the steak while watching the yeasties work -- dinner with entertainment!

Aidas

Post by **Tater** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 4:53 am

Ive heard old timers talk about finding a critter drowned in mash{didnt seem to hurt the likker }.All Ive ever heard or seen used for feeding yeast was small amounts of fruits and some vegtables mashed up stirred in wash.Usally with a few handfulls of grain.{I use rye} to form a cap on wash .Some when making sugarhead likker would mix hog chop {a flour type dry feed grain mix} to give yeast something to work agenst is how it was told to me.But that was here in this area.Golden Pond would be good 1 to ask about additives in his neck of the woods.

Uncle Remus · Post by **Uncle Remus** » Fri Jun 02, 2006 12:33 pm

Since I stopped using turbo yeast to make sugar washes, I've been throwing in a couple cups of hog (barley) chop into the wash. The sg always ends up at 0 so it seems to be adaquit for nutrients.

grunther777 · Post by **grunther777** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 12:30 am

The lethal dose of methanol is at least 100 ml

Interesting, considering that 250 ml of 100% ABV is lethal. does that mean methyl alcohol is only 2 and a half times as deadly as ethyl alcohol?

also interesting how a thread about methyl alcohol turned into a thread about meat in wort.

I just love watching these threads evolve.

possum · Post by **possum** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 7:53 am

And 2 tablespoons of salt on an empty stomach, or the flipside, 1 gallon of compleatley deionized h2o.

Methanol however attacks the optic nerve, and the treatment for methanol poisoning...give the patient ETHANOL , strange but true, I am unsure about the exact mechanism how the treatment works.

I dont think that the 2x as deadly statement is exactly correct, but life is fragille.

PseudoX · Post by **PseudoX** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 5:11 pm

Ethanol disrupts the absorbtion of Methanol into the body.

Thats how its the treatment

possum · Post by **possum** » Sat Jun 03, 2006 6:31 pm

Right, because they have similar avenues of absorbtion.

I belive there is some kind of enzyme action that creates somthing quite nasty with methanol, formalin or somthing else yucky.

I really know very little about organic chem. I wish I had more abillity in that area, as it is facinating, and usefull. The part that makes it interesting is the part that makes it hard. How many freakin' combinations of hydrogen, carbon, nitrogen , and phosphorus can nature (and man) produce ? Of course there are lots of variations that have the same constituant atoms, but in different arangements.

Blows my mind.

stoker · Post by **stoker** » Sun Jun 04, 2006 1:14 am

methanol forms formaldeyde in your liver
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formaldehyde" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Pieterpost · Post by **Pieterpost** » Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:12 pm

haven't been on the forums a while so I know this thread might be old but I might be able to add some information.

The mechanism why ethanol is given when someone has methanol poisoning: the enzyme alcoholdehydrogenase (this usually breaks down the methanol and ethanol) has a preferance for ethanol over methanol. When the enzyme is busy converting ethanol, the kidneys remove the methanol from your bloodstream.

As for the optic problem with methanol, this is caused by the formaldehyde and not the methanol itself. Formaldehyde causes retinal and optic nerve damage.