Home Distiller

Hi there. Yes I know and you probably know it yourselves: bunch of whiskey lovin' vandals, that's what ya are over here on HD. Offense intended and pun intended as well. Anyhow, I have seen a rising interest in gin / genever the last few months. Good development! Or maybe just the way evolution goes, right? From good to better?

Time to take genever / gin one step further. Maybe away from gin and more towards genever. But that actually means a move back towards whiskey again. So that should suit you, shouldn't it? Sorry, you say what ...? If I want to explain? Sure. Here we go.

Originally drinks are made from either fruit or grain. A fruit fermentation is called wine (grape, banana, pear, etc.), a grain fermentation is called beer. Big difference between the fruits and grains, is that the fruits usually live in warmer climates, providing some of their own water supply. Grains are more suited for a Northern (well, on this side of the hemisphere that is) climate and dependent on environmental water being present in order to start growing into a plant.

Make any wine from any fruit, distill it and you have a brandy (from: "brandewijn"), distill any kinda grain and you get ... well whiskey it is mostly called. Or should be called. "Whiskey is a distilled likker based on a grain fermentation in which - after distillation - the taste of the grain it is made from is recognizably present". As far as definitions go, that's the one I like. All the state inflicted nonsense like "3 years in wooden casks" is just that: nonsense. Originally Irish whiskey was sweetened with dry fruits and not aged on wood. Aging on wood was an accident happening in what is now the Cognac region. Nothing intentioal.

Okay, why do I like this definition? Because it clearly defines other grain distilates. Very quickly double distillation became the standard for whiskey making. From grain to beer to low wines to newmake spirit, white dog, pure whiskey, whatever. And if a grain distilate was distilled once more, it would be a vodka. The third distillation was an extra effort, and this extra effort was only invested in to make vodka. That is: a grain distilate in which "the taste of the grain it is made from is not recognizably present." You taste & smell the grain, but what is it (sorry for the Polish among us: I am leaving out potatoes) made from exactly is hard to tell. Corn, barley, rye, a mixture? So a vodka, originally, is not a drink of pure ethanol and water, without taste, congeners, etc. It is a product with taste and a bit of smell, only (much) less in comparison to a (double distilled) whiskey.

Now back to gin / genever. If we forget some first experiments based on brandywine, gin / genever is originally made from grains as well. Rye (for sure), (malted) barley, corn (nowadays). It is distilled four times instead of twice or thrice (?), like whiskey or vodka. The fourth distillation is the run with botanicals. This also meant that orininally gin / genever was the purest drink in terms of absence (relative that is) of heads/tails), closely followed by vodka. is the grain present? For sure. Is it recognizable? Not as such, but it does contribute to the taste.

Nowadays gin is considered a neutral vodka with botanicals. But that defies the original character of a true gin or genever (and even a vodka!): it is a grain based drink that used to be potdistilled and stayed well under 80% abv when being made (in fact after tripple distillation the pre botanicals gin would be 46 or 47% before the final run).

I think most Anglo-Saxon gins are based on the "gin is neutral vodka with botanicals" theory. I must say that 95% of Dutch gin / genever is also based on that. But there still is "old genever" and "korenwijn" around. These are gins / genevers with a grain taste present. It supports the botanicals in a great way. Korenwijn is made from a 100% all grain mash. Old genever is made from (mostly) like 50% grain and 50% neutral (a blend so to speak). The old gins are can be aged, and the korenwijn is definately aged. Sometimes up to 15 or 18 years. Taste notes come close to the best single malts: delicate, spicey. Aged in bourbon, sherry, port ... well you know, just like whiskey.

Why this long introduction? Because I want to invite you on a trip to making an old style gin. Not based on a neutral vodka, but based on a whiskey. If you do it right, it will give you a better (much better, I personally think) drink that a gin based on a neutral. A good grain bill adds to the experience. Adds to the complexity. And you can age it on wood to make it even better.

Here is where I might start: with an UJSSM like recipe. Or sweet feet, sorry "feed", as far as I am concerned. Sweet feed would not be bad at all, since old style gin is sweetened. The molasses in the sweet feed ad some sweetness, so why not. At least: take a whiskey you like and start with that.

I had some sweet feed left that I did not like. My mistake. I freez-filtered it and that harmed the taste big time. But good enough for a old style gin experiment, because there, grain flavour will only support botanicals, not stand on its own like in a whiskey.

So I took 3 liters of 40% sweed feed. See, it was already aged. No problem. Maybe some of the ageing / wood comes over. Who knows.

Then i put in 40 grams of lightly crushed juniper berries, some 10 grams of coriander seed (broken), 4 grams of Saint John's worth, 2 grams of fennel, a bit of cardemon and some dried orange peel. No liquorice, because I want grain in the aftertaste, not long, hot liquorice notes. And - compared to my normal style gin - I use less juniper and less coriander. I don't want the botanicals to swipe the grain notes of their feed. It will macerate for 12 hours, then I will distill it. Should give me like 1.5 liters at around 72, 73%. Pot distilling. And yes, I will take out the orange peel prior to distilling. The other botanicals stay in the pot while distilling.

Not thirsty yet? Not sure if you want to take this trip together with me? Look at the pics below. Hope they are convincing! Odin out (for now).

Some pics:

Old time gin used to be put in oak barrels like everything else. I believe the oak flavour was considered a defect.

http://distillers.tastylime.net/newSite/homepage.html#" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow p51. [Of common country gin.]

New barrels will certainly impart color, and perhaps some taste, which would injure the sale, if intended for a commercial town market, and for brewing, or mixing with spirits, from which it is to receive its flavour.

Hi Jake,

Originally genever was made as a drink to keep 16th/17th century sailors healthy on long sea going trips trips. The juniper oils helped the digestive system (kidneys and internal water management mostly). The gin was transported on boats in wooden barrels for up to 6 months. Mostly 3 months though, because there were distilleries around the world.

Anyway, that's what the Dutch did. Still, wood ageing is not so important. Nothing like what you see in single malt whisky: the longer the better.

BTW, can it be that the English took rum as their "sailing" likker? Just remembering some English stories about sailors drinking rum all the time.

Odin.

Edit: Jake, saw the library, but where is the book you refer to? Don't see it ...

My first go at gin didnt go so well. I think the herbs got a bit too hot in the boiler. I think this time I will strain them into a hopsack and suspend the in the middle of the boil. Any tips odin?

It came out kinda funky. I didnt have all the herbs but I had predistilled mascerations of all the stuff (only the corainder and juniper went into the masceration). I did a blend with the corainder juniper base. Its tasty but its off.

Your juniper berries look a lot larger than the ones I'm getting. I think mine are technically freeze dried since they are fresh picked off the trees but they are out of season. They still have moisture but they are less than 1/4" in diameter.

I ordered all the rest of the herbs and they should arrive soon. I'll try it with some UJSM white dog this time.

I was using the method you described in another post. Mascerate in 40% for 12-24 hours and then distill on the herbs and take half the original amount.

I'm sure i'll get it down. I need to just get ALL the ingredients and do it right.

I'm confused, well that's nothing new, are you distilling three or four times?

Not me King, but that was the original way. I make a base drink with two distillations and then do a third one "on the herbs".

Astro, if it got bitter, maybe your berries were not the best? Or you macerated too long? Or put fruit skins in your destilate? First tip would be: get the best berries: fruity, big and juicy they should be. Macerate herbs for a week and distill off the botanicals might help. And don't crush your berries to much.

Edit: Astro: I would suggest you get your herbs right first, and then go from neutral based gin to a grain based gin. Off course it is your choice, so you do what suits you. But if you have got your herbs bill (so to speak) not yet 100% to your liking, going for a grain based, old style gin, will just make things more complex. If that does not turn out good, the search for "where did it go wrong" is much more difficult: the whiskey, the herbs, the combination of both ... Just a suggestion.

Odin wrote:Not me King, but that was the original way. I make a base drink with two distillations and then do a third one "on the herbs".

Astro, if it got bitter, maybe your berries were not the best? Or you macerated too long? Or put fruit skins in your destilate? First tip would be: get the best berries: fruity, big and juicy they should be. Macerate herbs for a week and distill off the botanicals might help. And don't crush your berries to much.

Edit: Astro: I would suggest you get your herbs right first, and then go from neutral based gin to a grain based gin. Off course it is your choice, so you do what suits you. But if you have got your herbs bill (so to speak) not yet 100% to your liking, going for a grain based, old style gin, will just make things more complex. If that does not turn out good, the search for "where did it go wrong" is much more difficult: the whiskey, the herbs, the combination of both ... Just a suggestion.

Cool, you think I could make a good Absinthe from grains?

Don't know about Absinthe, King, sorry!

All of my gins have basically been genever, as it's not really worthwhile to make neutral with my small pot still. I basically do a 10-15 gal grain mash, 2-3 strip runs, then a spirit run where I pull a very small hearts to keep as whiskey. I collect everything else and either load a copper mesh basket with herbs or macerate at ~120F for a day and then run with the herbs in the boiler. If I am going to oak or I expect to get a ton of heads I will macerate, otherwise the basket seems to produce better juniper aroma and less oily flavor. I use ~30g/L of mostly juniper, and some angelica root, grains of paradise, lemon & bitter orange peel and either a lot or a little fennel/anise depending on the season (anise heavy gin sucks in a G&T, but is nice in the winter straight).

Guy, what kinda whiskey you use as a basis for your genever?

Odin.

The last 3 batches were ~35% malted rye, 35-50% 2-row, remainder either flaked maize, oats, or wheat. I read somewhere that a rye heavy spirit is traditional for genever, not sure how important it is but I had a 50 lb sack of malted rye so I gave it a shot. The think the grainy-ness of the rye carries through the multiple distillations better than plain 2-row, but that is a big THINK without alot of comparative analysis. If I was to do it again, I would slash the amount of barley malt and replace it with corn and/or wheat as I think the lightness would play better.

I haven't had many genevers, as Bols is really the only brand I've seen in the US. A local brewery got contracted by Bols to brew a beer to pair with their genever which built a lot of awareness around town but still not much is being imported it seems. My only other exposure was a few years ago in Amsterdam at this tiny little place that had genever barrels built into the walls & then again in Antwerp (i think) where I got ripping drunk sampling like 10 different genevers in a sitting.

Sounds good, Guy! Traditionally a 40% malted barley would have been combined with like 60% of rye. Nowadays in the old style genever it would be like 40/30/30 on rye, malted barley, corn.

A genever with a lot of rye in it is considered to be ... maybe not the easiest to drink, but certainly the most interesting one.

So you visited Antwerpen and Amsterdam. Not bad places to hang around! I remember visiting Brugge or Gent once, in Belgium. They had a beer bar next to the waterside and a genever bar next to that beer bar. Now, I wouldn't hesitate to jump into the jenever bar right away. But then I was still very much a beer drinker. Now they do make good genever & excelent beer in Belgium ...

Odin.

An update on my "Aulde" genever. Distilled it, diluted it to 43% and gave it a few days rest. What a difference the rest makes! As with my other gins/genevers a bit of patience is everything. On Saturday the drink was nice, but somehow lacking a bit in juniper. And I didn't taste back much of the tangerine peel ...

Now, only a few days later, grain, juniper, herbs ... and tangerine are all in balance. The tangerine gives a nice twitch. Must say I did take out allmost all the peel, but not all. A bit stayed behind and was distilled. With some inside white to give it some more fruitiness. Always a risk, but it payed out 100% perfect.

I made me some caramel and coloured the drink in a nice copper way. Feel a bit ashamed I didn't put this one on oak instead of just "colouring" it. Well, that will be the next step, I guess.

Odin.

Hey Odin
When you say
"I use 40gms of juniper berries"
Are you talking about fresh juniper berries?

Reason I ask is it is easier to get dried.
If I use dried what quantity would you suggest.... 10gms?


TAF

Now that is a question I can't asnwer easily, since it really depends on how dried it is (or how fresh it is). I do know the quality of the juniper is essential. Tried dried junipers once and it gave me a drink nowhere near as good as with fresher juniper.

"Fresh" means that if you hold a berrie between your fingers and crush it, you get out some (really a little) moisture. It ain't much. But on dried berries you get out nothing.

The taste notes differ hugely. Fresh berries give a clean and crips juniper flavour. Floral, intense. Dried ones gave me less taste (so you need more if you use them) and the taste was more course. I would do anything to get my hands on fresh berries ...

Odin.

Have you ever tried a gin with a malt-based spirit? I swear I saw "maltwine" mentioned in a book on old-style gin. Seems it would make a nice base- softer, maybe sweeter than the grains...(Every time I have any mature malt spirit- I drink it before I can add any botanicals...)

Johnny,

That is exactly what I am speaking about in this thread. "Malt wine" or actually a unaged whiskey (based on rye or a combo of like 40% malted barley, 30% corn, 30% rye) is the basis of an old style genever.

Makes it more complex in taste. Especially, since it can be oaked as well.

And some sweetening can be added, too.

Odin.

Nice thread Odin

Glad you like it! Into gin making yourself?

Odin.

Odin,

I'm getting ready to step into the genever arena for the first time. Base is going to be a basic corn UJSSM at your recommended 42-45% abv, in which I will have macerated specialty barley (crystal, victory, smoked, etc). I will then macerate the berries, peels, herbs, seeds, whatever in this base, then toss all but the peels into the pot for spirit distillation, probably suspending the peels in the base of the pot head.

Do you have any changes you would recommend to my plans or your botanical recipe of 40g juniper + 10g coriander + 4g St John's Wort + 2g fennel + cardemon + dried orange peel per 3L of base?

BTW, enjoy your trip to our country this summer. Assuming you are a beer drinker, make sure you visit as many of our microbreweries/brewpubs as you can. Amazing. As are many of our craft distillers.

Thanks B! Not sure about the micro breweries though. I already visit a few micro distilleries. I like beer, but try to limit myself a bit, since I can't do much sports right now.

Interesting approach on macerating barley. Let me know how it works out. Please know it is corn, rye and malted barley that make up most grain bills for genever! If you are going into the directin of extra grain taste, which is great, I'd cut the juniper in half.

Odin.

Odin,

In your recipes and discussions, when you refer to an herb that is typically used in the dried seed form, is it the seed form you are referring to or might it be another part of the plant? For example, fennel. Could be seed, leaf or bulb of the plant. I'm assuming in recipes I read on HD that the form of the plant used in distillation is that typically found in the kitchen, unless stated otherwise.

One more. When lightly crushing juniper, I'm assuming the aim is to break the skin. To maintain consistency, how about putting a slice in each, or even slicing them in half?

Slicing would work just as well. It may just be more work. And yes: what you find in the kitchen as herbs, that's what I talk about!

Regards, Odin.

Damn Odin, I'm very glad this thread got bumped as now I'm quite sure I
more interested in old style gin/genever than my standard "Anglo/Saxon" consideration of gin. My friends who are standard gin(Bombay Sapphire and the such) were my initial influence, but as i love my whiskey i believe I've found a new direction and a new direction to send my friends in as they generally seem to enjoy my booze over the comparative commercial version. Only time will tell how this goes, but one question, do you prefer aging on oak before the final(botanical) distillation? Or use of the white(whiskyish) base over that?

Use the white. If you want to oak, you can do it two ways. One is to set some whiskey on oak and add the genever essence. Other is you add the genever (so after the herbs run) at around 60% to wood. Be careful with char, since it takes out flavour!

Odin.

Thanks as always for your feedback Odin, sorry for all the grammatical errors in that last post, posting from my phones a PITA

Got my mini pot readied, gathered my flavorings, made my base. I'll be running my first go this weekend.

Odin, I'm curious what you think about run rate and starting abv. With botanicals in the pot, how fast do I want to run this? Too fast and not enough extraction, too slow and over extraction? With the volume I'll be running (1 to 2 liter) it could be over with quite quickly. How about starting abv? After macerating at 43% or so, I'll be diluting to 40% or less. Any recommendations?

I'm sure these are questions best resolved through experience, but figured I'd ask anyway.

On speed: I usually run between stripping and finishing speeds. ABV: not so important. You can dilute, prior to running, to 30%, or you can run at 43%. 43% gives a slightly dryer result.

Odin.

Odin,
Just finished my very first genever/gin run. Tastes marvelous already. What a lot of fun this is. I tip my hat to you, sir. Thank you for your guidance. I'm prepping my next batches to run tomorrow.

Congratulations on your successful run!

Odin.