Home Distiller

I have read quite a few posts in the recipe Section, and many seem to call for Tomato Paste,Dry active yeast boiled to kill it, crushed vitamin tablets,etc . I know WHY these are added, for yeast nutrient, My question however is, Why do you choose these things instead of the cheaper and equally available, commercially available Yeast Nutrient,and Yeast Energizer, and Yeast Hulls(dead yeast)?

Yeast Nutrient 1lb-$4.49 you only use 1 teaspoon per gallon, so one lb will last a LONG LONG LONG time doing 5g batches of wash.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/yeast-nutrient.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Yeast Energizer - 1 lb.-$12.99 A bit more Pricey yes, but you also use less, 1/4 to 1/2 teaspoon per gallon, so it will last even longer than the yeast nutrient.

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/yeast-en ... -1-lb.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Yeast Hulls 1lb-$3.99 1lb is enough for 333 gallons of wash. the rate is 1gram per 1liter of wash. So again the cost per batch would be very low unless you run a commercial distillery.

http://thevintnervault.com/index.php?p= ... ct_id=1338" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Acid Blend 1lb-$5.99 Normally Only one or two teaspoons per batch is used to balance the acidity in Wine fermentations, but would also be a good Acid Source for those making Rum washes

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/acid-blend.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I use the first three of these products at the start of all my beer and wine fermentation's and i use acid Blend in all my wine and mead making and i have never had one stick(knock on wood), I never have a Slow or Sluggish ferment, and i get VERY few off flavors unless i up my temps to produce them on purpose(i like fruity esters in beer what can i say).

So with commercially available products on the market designed for fermentation and tested to the max in a controlled lab setting to ensure great fermentation every time, i am really confused as to why people are still using "tomato paste" as a yeast nutrient?

Those nutrient figures are off (meaning these washes will often require more than the label suggests) and most of those nutes are designed for beer. I like keeping my yeast super happy and fermenting at like 90F (that doesn't sound like my beer fermentations).


Dried yeast hulls cost more than boiling your own yeast or slurry.
Energizer and Nutrient are vague terms. I know exactly what I'm using when I use vitamins.

Tomato paste isn't exactly cheap and I dont use it. I think it is suggested because almost everyone has some in their pantry. It isn't abnormal for you to have EVERYTHING to make birdwatchers on hand.

a base like calcium carbonate is needed when sour mashing... youll need to raise PH at some point..


You can use whatever you like and it very well may work great. If you have it try it. If it works satisfactorily than continue to use it, If you don't know how to properly substitute one nute for another (uh oh)...

theres no magic going on here...

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=14

Follow a proven recipe and then make it your own. That's what master-chef does.

One reason why folks don't just buy chemicals is that they may not be available locally and they may not be comfortable ordering online... I fall into that category... Plus there is the adventure factor of using nondescript ingredients that keep us under the radar... Virtually any grocery store has all of the ingredients we need to make an easy wash which distills into very clean spirits...

rad14701 wrote:One reason why folks don't just buy chemicals is that they may not be available locally and they may not be comfortable ordering online... I fall into that category... Plus there is the adventure factor of using nondescript ingredients that keep us under the radar... Virtually any grocery store has all of the ingredients we need to make an easy wash which distills into very clean spirits...

Makes sense. I personally think you would still be under the radar shopping at a local home brew supply store if you have one, but I do see what you mean, no one would give it a second thought if you pick up the stuff with your grocerys.

vance71975 wrote:

rad14701 wrote:One reason why folks don't just buy chemicals is that they may not be available locally and they may not be comfortable ordering online... I fall into that category... Plus there is the adventure factor of using nondescript ingredients that keep us under the radar... Virtually any grocery store has all of the ingredients we need to make an easy wash which distills into very clean spirits...

Makes sense. I personally think you would still be under the radar shopping at a local home brew supply store if you have one, but I do see what you mean, no one would give it a second thought if you pick up the stuff with your grocerys.

Yep... For example, I could go to the grocery store and stock up on the following ingredients I regularly use and nobody would think anything about my purchase...

• All Bran Cereal, or other
• Gerber Baby Cereal, or other
• Wheat Germ
• Tomato Paste or Puree
• Yeast
• Sugar
• Epsom Salt
• Baking Soda
• Plant Food
• Vinegar
• Cream of Tartar or Citric Acid
• Lemons or pure lemon juice
• Multivitamins

I could buy every item on that list at one time and not raise a bit of suspicion...

rad14701 wrote:

vance71975 wrote:

rad14701 wrote:One reason why folks don't just buy chemicals is that they may not be available locally and they may not be comfortable ordering online... I fall into that category... Plus there is the adventure factor of using nondescript ingredients that keep us under the radar... Virtually any grocery store has all of the ingredients we need to make an easy wash which distills into very clean spirits...

Makes sense. I personally think you would still be under the radar shopping at a local home brew supply store if you have one, but I do see what you mean, no one would give it a second thought if you pick up the stuff with your grocerys.

Yep... For example, I could go to the grocery store and stock up on the following ingredients I regularly use and nobody would think anything about my purchase...

• All Bran Cereal, or other
• Gerber Baby Cereal, or other
• Wheat Germ
• Tomato Paste or Puree
• Yeast
• Sugar
• Epsom Salt
• Baking Soda
• Plant Food
• Vinegar
• Cream of Tartar or Citric Acid
• Lemons or pure lemon juice
• Multivitamins

I could buy every item on that list at one time and not raise a bit of suspicion...

I can see that, tho i personally know i would not drink anything made with "plant food" lol.

vance71975 wrote:I can see that, tho i personally know i would not drink anything made with "plant food" lol.

Yet you would use straight chemicals found in DAP or other chemical nutrients... That's where ample research kicks in to insure that you are using the right plant food/fertilizer... I'd never use anything I haven't fully researched either, including yeast nutrients or turbo yeast... Most folks probably wouldn't consider inverting their sugar using vinegar either but I do it all the time with great results... It's all part of intelligently thinking outside the box... If people knew what chemicals were used in food production they probably wouldn't eat much processed food, including sugar or flour...

rad14701 wrote:

vance71975 wrote:I can see that, tho i personally know i would not drink anything made with "plant food" lol.

Yet you would use straight chemicals found in DAP or other chemical nutrients... That's where ample research kicks in to insure that you are using the right plant food/fertilizer... I'd never use anything I haven't fully researched either, including yeast nutrients or turbo yeast... Most folks probably wouldn't consider inverting their sugar using vinegar either but I do it all the time with great results... It's all part of intelligently thinking outside the box... If people knew what chemicals were used in food production they probably wouldn't eat much processed food, including sugar or flour...

Well i have done the research on DAP, and i am comfortable with it. I tend to avoid a lot of processed foods anyway but i know what you mean, except for my Pepsi throwback, i have to have that lol.

I'm sure glad you asked that question, vance, since I'm too inexperienced to ask it myself. But I have spent considerable time spreadsheeting the nutritional analyses of grains, vegetables, yeast extracts, autolyzed yeasts, and even multi-vitamin tabs, trying to figure out what is essential to thorough fermentation. While I understand the charm of grocery store ingredients to this hobby, I really lean to the purer forms of nutrients to minimize any unnecessary adjuncts, with the goal of the cleanest neutral possible. Rums and whiskeys are another thing entirely, of course.

I know, I should just shut up and stick to a tried and true recipe, but damn it, I have sorta got used to my head up my ass. Doesn't smell so good, but at least it's warm.

My understanding is that the exponential growth phase needs a lot of nitrogen in either organic or inorganic form, and DAP is an extremely efficient provider during that phase, yet a balance of ammonia to amino acid nitrogen is required during the steady phase to discourage the production of different groups of fermentation-derived volatile compounds. I've bullied my way through a lot of scientific papers that have demonstrated the requirements for substantial amounts of magnesium, potassium, calcium, and phosphorous, as well as the B vitamins, trace minerals, and of course, amino acids- not only for their supply of yeast available nitrogen, but for their energy-saving assimilation by yeast cells versus the energy required for essential amino acid synthesis. Yeast hulls have also have been shown to be an effective source of necessary lipids, an extractor of fermentation-inhibiting fatty acids, and a source of both nucleation sites and chitin.

As I see it, a complete synthesis of an appropriate yeast growth substrate is expensive, way beyond a hobby level of involvement, and just plain, downright silly. But I think that there are a few of us who can see a middle ground between tomato paste and buying isolates of 18 different amino acids. That is where I would find this hobby enjoyable, while I don't want to discourage (or even offend) those who favor other approaches.

One experiment I would love to play with is to do a home extraction of yeast, which sounds involved, but is surprisingly easy. Commercial extractions for food purposes use either salt or enzymes, and then apply heat to autolyze the yeast fast and efficiently. However, the gentle heating (122 F) of baker's yeast for a 24 hour period, has been shown to effectively autolyze the yeast, without introducing chemicals that would later interfere with fermentation. This method would produce both the extract, rich in the essential yeast nutrients in assimilable form, as well as the cellular wall components that yeast hulls would otherwise be used to provide. Simply boiling yeast would of course only produce dead yeast cells with most of the nutrients still locked up inside.

DAP and magnesium would be necessary adjuncts, it seems, and I would be highly interested in experimenting with the effects of additional supplementation of B complex vitamins, essential minerals, and trace minerals. But the core nutrient substrate (yeast autolysate) is cheap, readily available, and producible by home distillers. My head is getting cold so I'll just go back to my normal position, now.

Vance, I too have been using DAP when I make the Wineos sugar wash, I guess the last time I made it for some reason it stalled (guess I must have used heaping teaspoons the first time) so I then took a jar, dumped a small can of tomato paste in it and 2 tsp of lemon juice, a little water, shook up really good, dumped it in my wash and readded 1/4 cup of bakers yeast. MAN WAS I SUPRISED. They are on to something with the whole tomato paste thing. I know I won't be buying DAP again myself. If it works, and it's naturally tomato sauce, IM USING IT

I was pretty damn impressed

If you are wanting to just use powdered commercialized nutrients? Why don't you just use a tubo yeast? It's already got all that stuff added for you.

To each his own. There are many ways to skin this cat. What ever works for you have at it. But don't knock it till you try it.

I personaly don't think a perfect neutral can be made with plain sugar. Every thing I have tasted made with sugar has a bite to it. That is undesirable to me. Not saying its not good. But its not perfect in my mind. One of the reasons I like using all bran is the wheaty taste covers it up a bit. I didn't realize this till I did my first AG. And then tasted others AG runs. That bite is not there. I call it a bite but it mite be more of a Sharp flavor? I haven't really put my finger on it. But that is just my two nickles. Take it as you want.

Prairiepiss wrote:If you are wanting to just use powdered commercialized nutrients? Why don't you just use a tubo yeast? It's already got all that stuff added for you.

I agree that unrestrained use of DAP is a little like using turbos, but I respectfully beg to differ a bit, Prairiepiss. Turbo yeast isn't anything like finding a clean neutral, in fact, is quite the opposite. Turbo designers are going for maximum speed, maximum ethanol, and damn the neutrals. They pile on nutrients, minerals, vitamins, and whatever they can shoe-horn into those over-sized and expensive packets with total disregard for unpleasant byproducts, in order to win the FASTEST and HIGHEST YIELD race with their competitors. Then they sell it to impatient noobs by pretending that carbon filtering of the crap from that type of fermentation is normal distilling procedure.

The problem with fermenting at those kinds of speeds is like feeding a couch potato ice cream and twinkies. He's gonna grow real big, real fast, but he'll stink up the joint and there's no way he's gonna run a 4 minute mile. DAP is like ice cream, it's fine for bulking up the yeasties, but there needs to be a balance in their nutrition that makes them work to break down more complex food. When they are forced to eat free amino nitrogen, as opposed to only munching on the easier to assimilate inorganic nitrogen in ammonia, they are making intermediate enzymes and non-available amino acids that help avoid 'off-flavor' compounds from being formed. Given a constant diet of ice cream, yeast will continue to accumulate biomass, consuming all the essential vitamins and/or minerals until total depletion of one or the other dooms the colony to either death or stagnation. Tomato paste (and for that matter, most grains, veggies, and even legumes) will provide that balance for sure, but there is also no reason that less flavorful free amino nitrogen sources, such as yeast extract, couldn't supply that needed balance and exercise. Hopefully, there may be a nutritional balance that could reduce the need to mask that 'bite'.

Of course, I am being an arrogant ass for even approaching this subject with little real experience, but being old doesn't make me any less impudent.

It was a joke. I really wouldn't recommend that crap to any one.

Oh, I knew that you (or anyone on this site) weren't recommending turbos. That was the very first thing I learned here. The pitchmen for the turbos are something to behold, though. I watched a half dozen u-tube pitches for them and it seemed a bit weird at the time, because in my experience, carbon filtration is a fairly extreme remedy. Now I know that the funny smell was greed. At the risk of brown-nosing, I thank you for all your contributions, and thoroughly enjoy the camaraderie here.

I was just speaking in defense of pursuing non-plant nutrition. After I fail, I'll join the tomato paste crowd.

I'm here to tell you Mogur, tomato paste is all natural and has really carried the torch for me lately, I never made the birdwatchers due to the whole tomato paste thing, but don't be scared its works good, I am going to go ahead and try Rads All Bran now though. I love to try all of them (I have to say, I hope my sweet feed I tried smoothes out on oak).

I'm looking forward to trying them all, as well. I really have absolutely no problem with tomato paste, or bat guano for that matter, if it makes good booze. I was just teasing about tomato paste to make my point... but it is a rather surprising nute, if not a tiny bit humorous [visions of spaghetti hanging out of the wash bucket].

I really do appreciate your input, whiskeytripping. I just need to relax and try to overcome my urge to throw everything but the kitchen sink into the brew, which is how I always approach new hobbies (and always fail at first).

I Experimented with regular tomatoes when I went to the pantry for my can of tomato paste and found it had gone into a meal somewhere. I have a tomato plant in the back that has put out more tomatoes than I can eat- So, I washed, and blended up half a dozen and used them instead. Worked great for me.
SB

that's using the ol noggin