Highest ABV to distill

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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Dan P. »

Purple_Flurp wrote:theoretically, you could distill to 99% alcohol, although i would guess it would take a lot of runs. each time you distill, a certain percentage of the alcohol is distilled (typically all of it) and a certain percent of the water is distilled (typically, not all of it). in other words, alcohol is more volatile (ethanol's boiling point is 78.4 C or 174 F) than water (100 C or 212 F), so the relative rate of evaporation for each part will differ. That's the key part. if you condensed part of a 50/50 solution of vaporized water and ethanol, you would get more water than ethanol, because the ethanol wants to be a gas. however, if you heated a 50/50 solution of liquid water and ethanol, you more ethanol vapor than water vapor would be produced, again because ethanol wants to be a gas more than water does.
What's the point of 99% ethanol? you can use it as a fuel in combustion engines. (you want very little water in it; water is horrible for Internal combustion engines or ICEs). ehow.com says you can get a filter which separates water from ethanol, which would make the multiple runs unnecessary, but i have yet to actually see one.
About combustion. obviously you don't want to burn your house down. always have a fire extinguisher handy, and try to use an electric coil if possible, and the best thing you can do is do this outside. autoignition, or the temperature where ethanol ignites (not to be confused with flash point). is 425 C or 797 F. i've seen my burner at home get to about 400 C on high, so don't expect electric to be 100% safe. also, i would expect autoignition to occur at a higher temperature when the ABV is lower, so you should be safe for most of your runs until the end with electric.
Apart from stating the obvious (safety issues) you also state that if one condenses 50/50 water ethanol / vapour, there will be more water than ethanol. Well, it's either condensed, or it's not. So how does that work, and what is your point?
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by rad14701 »

Purple_Flurp wrote:theoretically, you could distill to 99% alcohol, although i would guess it would take a lot of runs.
The problem with that logic is that at atmospheric pressure ethanol above 96.5% will absorb moisture out of the air and drop to 96.5% or lower, depending on several other factors... So without desiccants or vacuum, chasing after 99% is like chasing after a unicorn... The %ABV will drop and the volume in the container will increase - unless the alcohol evaporates faster than it absorbs water...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Dan P. »

rad14701 wrote:
Purple_Flurp wrote:theoretically, you could distill to 99% alcohol, although i would guess it would take a lot of runs.
The problem with that logic is that at atmospheric pressure ethanol above 96.5% will absorb moisture out of the air and drop to 96.5% or lower, depending on several other factors... So without desiccants or vacuum, chasing after 99% is like chasing after a unicorn... The %ABV will drop and the volume in the container will increase - unless the alcohol evaporates faster than it absorbs water...
I was wondering why 99%? Why not make it 100%? Neither are going to happen, so why not go as big as you can?
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

For the record, I have run higher than 40% ABV low-wines before - no, I will not state how much as not to imply some unofficial new safe limit. However I watch it like a hawk, only in pot still mode, and run it very slow. Only reason I do this is when I am looking for a lot of flavor - rum, corn whiskey, or if I have a volume issue in the boiler (to prevent splitting the run into 2 smaller runs).
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

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Doogie wrote:For the record, I have run higher than 40% ABV low-wines before - no, I will not state how much as not to imply some unofficial new safe limit. However I watch it like a hawk, only in pot still mode, and run it very slow. Only reason I do this is when I am looking for a lot of flavor - rum, corn whiskey, or if I have a volume issue in the boiler (to prevent splitting the run into 2 smaller runs).
You could probably boil gasoline once too, and get away with it. And blow yourself, your house and your wife and children up the second time. I dont understand the point your making stating you got away with something stupid. You applied for a 'Darwin Award' and didnt win. Thankfully. You might just win it next time. Sorry to sound like a hard ass, but please knock that stupid shit off, this hobby doenst need the bad press. And your hookah avatar still cracks me up.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Dan P. »

Even my feints don't get much higher than about 30%. Low wines usually around 25%.
I have read that the Scotch dudes never run a spirit charge (or any other) above 30%, for quality reasons, as myles said earlier in this thread.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Jimbo »

Dan P. wrote:Even my feints don't get much higher than about 30%. Low wines usually around 25%.
I have read that the Scotch dudes never run a spirit charge (or any other) above 30%, for quality reasons, as myles said earlier in this thread.
My target SG, for everything, is 8%. Low wines are always 28-30% average running the strip down into the mud. 40%+ low wines means a lot was left on the table? Or in the boiler as it were?
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

Jimbo wrote:You could probably boil gasoline once too, and get away with it. And blow yourself, your house and your wife and children up the second time. I dont understand the point your making stating you got away with something stupid. You applied for a 'Darwin Award' and didnt win. Thankfully. You might just win it next time. Sorry to sound like a hard ass, but please knock that stupid shit off, this hobby doenst need the bad press. And your hookah avatar still cracks me up.
Well, for the record, I never did state how much (or little) I exceed the 40% "safe" ABV level on occasion ... of course I am not 90% or something goofy - because low wines + feints would never get that high. My low wines usually push 50 - 40% out of that stage ... feints are usually a lot higher they alone usually push high (pot still, in reflux, a heck of a lot less) because I have my own taste profile preferences...

Again, I am not interested in putting the number up in fear of someone going "Doogie said he does XX%" - then again, as I also stated, I watch the still very closely, and I understand how my still sounds, acts, and act accordingly ... but I appreciate your concern.

As for the hookah, look closely - it is one of the clowns from moonshiners spitting out crappy likker that he made ... :)
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

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Doogie wrote: As for the hookah, look closely - it is one of the clowns from moonshiners spitting out crappy likker that he made ... :)
haha, ya, we talked about this a while back when I made the same comment. looks like a hookah and smoky exhale, but he's spittin out some crap over a still. LOL.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by aquavita »

Those 2 young guys from the show put on quite the good "dim-bulb" act for the show.

Doubt they are that slow.

Sorry to thread-jack, but seriously - don't you think that EVERY L.E. pro in their area is not out to bust them if they truly are running 'shine?????
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Dan P. »

Jimbo wrote: 40%+ low wines means a lot was left on the table? Or in the boiler as it were?
40%+ low wines means either high %ABV sugarheads or some kind of reflux still.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Maritimer »

Here is a paste from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Flammability
An ethanol-water solution that contains 40% ABV (alcohol by volume) will catch fire if heated to about 26 °C (79 °F) and if an ignition source is applied to it. This is called its flash point. The flash point of pure ethanol is 16.60 °C (61.88 °F), less than average room temperature.

The flash points of ethanol concentrations from 10% ABV to 96% ABV are shown below:

10% — 49 °C (120 °F)
20% — 36 °C (97 °F)
30% — 29 °C (84 °F)
40% — 26 °C (79 °F)
50% — 24 °C (75 °F)
60% — 22 °C (72 °F)
70% — 21 °C (70 °F)
80% — 20 °C (68 °F)
90% — 17 °C (63 °F)
96% — 17 °C (63 °F)
Alcoholic beverages that have a low concentration of ethanol will burn if sufficiently heated and an ignition source (such as an electric spark or a match) is applied to them. For example, the flash point of ordinary wine containing 12.5% ethanol is about 52 °C (126 °F).
So low wines of any concentration at boiling temperatures are flammable if they somehow escape the boiler. Why does that make 40%ABV so special, safety-wise?

M
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

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Because if there was a catastrophic failure the spillage would not remain flammable and/or easier to extinguish... It's not about what's in the boiler but what happens if it gets spewed about the stilling area during a catastrophe... If room temperature pretty much negates the flash point then you are going to be safer if such an event took place... The numbers prove that out...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

So, to understand this ...
I have a catastrophic failure of my boiler - and empty 40L of low wines at 50% onto my propane burner. I have been running the still for some time, and lets say, my low wines are at 76'F - technically the 40L of 50% at 76'F can ignite correct? Am I to understand that any temperature over 75'F is the temp where the liquid can ignite?

Also, on alternative (not saying they are right or wrong) boards about this, it states (and I may be interpreting this incorrectly) there is a greater concern with electric elements and low volume distillations that eventually expose the elements to glow red hot, triggering a flash explosion - is this the main concern (other than product quality)?
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

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It's not a matter of gas versus internal electric... The vapor within the boiler is almost always at or well above the flash point... It's been discussed enough about making sure you always have enough boiler charge to never encounter a dry fire of the element...

To prove the point I'm making, toss some 80 proof/40% against a wall and see if it can retain a flame... That's what will happen during a catastrophic failure... The wall will cool the liquid to below flash point... Now try some higher proof and note the results... No, don't burn your house down trying this... You could even use a SS pot to achieve the same results...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Jimbo »

So are you guys saying if Im doing a run with my electric setup, and the level gets below the element, the coroner will basically be pulling stainless shrapnel out of my body? Thats comforting.

I have a 5g spirit run to do. My element sits at 3g mark. Its 30% now, but I think Ill add another 1/2gallon of water and monitor the take closely to make sure it doesnt go beyond 2g pulled.

There's really NO room for error or sloppyness in a few select parts of this hobby.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

OK, and just as discussion, not confrontation, would the travel thru the air not cool down the liquid, not accounting for high ambient temps (like a hot summer day) and cool temps (like running in a garage with ventilation on a freezing day), and also the contact with a cooler surface (wall) not drop the flashpoint? I could understand in a in-house setting where the surface temperatures and air temperatures may be a lot warmer, but outside, the travel of the fluid may cool it down, and the contact on surfaces may cool it down. Then again, the fluid in the failure, if it has actually started distilling, is super heated and way past the flash point of even 10% ...

I guess i am confused - the difference in 40% to 50% is 4 degrees. I can appreciate as you get close to the ambient temperature of the room/enclosure/atmosphere (so say at 68'F and I am running something with a flash point of 65%), but I am not sure I understand (and I am not a chemical guy nor a physics guy) the difference between 40 to 50% or 30 to 50% in relation to safety, if, the fluid exiting the failure is way over the flash point of both, and superheated enough (boiling) to negate the cooling effects of the atmosphere and/or the surfaces the fluid contacts.

Again, as I have stated, I have no idea what I am talking about, and while I have on occasion slightly exceeded the 40% rule, I do not advocate it ...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by rad14701 »

It's all about a generic scenario, not one based on what a given persons stilling environment happens to be on a given day... Keeping a safety buffer in place, whether it be the %ABV of the boiler charge, the extra water added to the boiler to insure that an internal electric element never dry fires, how far the collection point is from an open flame, or any other aspects, we want to promote safety... That means safe regardless of whether a fledgling novice or an overly experienced distiller...

We convey the safety advice and it is up to the individual distiller as to whether or not they heed the advice... Or we could just say piss on it and let the cards fall where they may and let the hobby slip backwards rather than moving forward in the public eye... Moonshiners and several other TV shows have already caused enough damage that we need to work harder at offsetting so there's no need throwing more fuel onto the fire...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

OK, I was just wondering why some stated 40% was OK, and some stated they wanted to be way below that, and the odd person saying they go a little above ... and being one of the latter, I was wondering why it was being suggested that I was going to blow my kids up ...

I understand and support the 40% position though - and now can understand more of the reasoning behind the figure ... thanks
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Jimbo »

Im no chemist, but since anything over 40% burns when I put fire to it, and anything under does not, while Im sittin here sippin and playin with fire, seems a reasonable limit to set. Just like your signature suggests Doog, get a little too crazy with your pasttimes and it could get real ugly quick. Cheers.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Dan P. »

If safety is not reason enough, a spirit charge of below 30% is recommended for reasons of quality.
I realise that this has been stated a few times before, but the discussion of why you should run below 40% is a bit like discussing why you shouldn't rub the habaneros on your balls when making habanero sauce. The fact that it will make you very, very sad is almost irrelevant; It's just not the way you make habanero sauce.
Last edited by Dan P. on Sat Feb 15, 2014 3:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

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Dan P. wrote:If safety is not reason enough, a spirit charge of below 30% is recommended for reasons of quality.
What are you making? I find (lets say) 40% makes a very fine rum ... but if you are using water as a filter and trying to either remove some flavor or remove it all together, then I can see your point. But maybe I am wrong when making rum ...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

Jimbo wrote:Im no chemist, but since anything over 40% burns when I put fire to it, and anything under does not, while Im sittin here sippin and playin with fire, seems a reasonable limit to set. Just like your signature suggests Doog, get a little too crazy with your pasttimes and it could get real ugly quick. Cheers.
Ah, but with all respect, I never sip and shine - yes, I rub a small quantity on my tongue to check the stages, but I spit it out ... but I see your point if you may on occassion ...
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Dan P. »

Doogie wrote:
Dan P. wrote:If safety is not reason enough, a spirit charge of below 30% is recommended for reasons of quality.
What are you making? I find (lets say) 40% makes a very fine rum ... but if you are using water as a filter and trying to either remove some flavor or remove it all together, then I can see your point. But maybe I am wrong when making rum ...
I understand that below 30% certain undesirable compounds come out of solution with alcohol. They either precipitate out or go into solution with water. That's my understanding, anyway, and it might only apply to grain spirits, and it might remove some flavour from rum, so you have a fair point.

But anyway, how are you getting to 40% low wines? You must either have a high ABV wash or be using a reflux still, right?
I would expect that your flavour will be improved by making either a lower abv wash, or by using a pot still (debatable!).
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Maritimer »

Dan P. wrote:But anyway, how are you getting to 40% low wines? You must either have a high ABV wash or be using a reflux still, right?
Maybe adding heads or "hearts" that didn't quite make it to the low wines.

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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

Dan P. wrote:But anyway, how are you getting to 40% low wines? You must either have a high ABV wash or be using a reflux still, right?
I would expect that your flavour will be improved by making either a lower abv wash, or by using a pot still (debatable!).
I regularity pump out low wines in the 40-50% range - I primarily make either birdwatchers (for SPD types), a harry GGGP rum, or a UJSSM, using baker's yeast. Usually yield around 10-11% after fermenting

I collect down to 20% only. Also, one must compare the volume of low wines compared to wash - my 150L fermenter usually spits out around 25-30L of low wines at 40-50% - maybe some have higher volumes but lower ABVs depending on how the still strips.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Doogie »

Maritimer wrote:
Dan P. wrote:But anyway, how are you getting to 40% low wines? You must either have a high ABV wash or be using a reflux still, right?
Maybe adding heads or "hearts" that didn't quite make it to the low wines.

M
Nope - that is a separate process - I do add them into later runs, usually 50% low wines, 40% feints, 10% water to adjust final ABV
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by SherrodBrown »

Well I am a bit confused. :crazy: But im also new to this forum. When people say reflux stills It sounds like they are meaning the Hybrid stills and pot would be the keg type.?

Any way. I've read about a min. of 1/ 2.7 x the water content to calculate next low wine ABV.
Ex. 88 ABV would be 12 Percent water content. 88/2.7=4.44. , 12-4.44=7.55 amd 7.55 + 88=95.55 ABV(. Azeotropic)

Im not sure weather this is correct but I think you would have to redistill from a very high incoming ABV to start with. Some suggests 15 ABV in a first run means 65 ABV. A 4.3 times increment. If you were to use that ( 2.7 is from major distilleries and the kegs type it might produce a higher yield ) you end up with perhaps ? around 81.5 ABV that you need before the last distill. I must do some experiment runs but a trippel distillation with supreme ventilation is needed. And Im not sure it's recommended in the first place..I will have to seek further advise on that.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by Fivey »

SherrodBrown wrote:Well I am a bit confused. :crazy: But im also new to this forum. When people say reflux stills It sounds like they are meaning the Hybrid stills and pot would be the keg type.?

Any way. I've read about a min. of 1/ 2.7 x the water content to calculate next low wine ABV.
Ex. 88 ABV would be 12 Percent water content. 88/2.7=4.44. , 12-4.44=7.55 amd 7.55 + 88=95.55 ABV(. Azeotropic)

Im not sure weather this is correct but I think you would have to redistill from a very high incoming ABV to start with. Some suggests 15 ABV in a first run means 65 ABV. A 4.3 times increment. If you were to use that ( 2.7 is from major distilleries and the kegs type it might produce a higher yield ) you end up with perhaps ? around 81.5 ABV that you need before the last distill. I must do some experiment runs but a trippel distillation with supreme ventilation is needed. And Im not sure it's recommended in the first place..I will have to seek further advise on that.
If you are confused about the names given to different still designs, read more threads in the Novice Distiller > Stills and still building and Hardware > Pot Distillation and > Column Builds sections. It appears you are confused about the difference between a still and a boiler, so you have got some more reading to do yet. When people here say reflux stills, they mean reflux; when they say hybrid, they mean hybrid; when they say pot still, they mean pot still.

On that note, put the maths down for now. You are way too early in your discovery of this craft to be trying to science out how much alcohol you’re going to get. You just don’t have a grasp on all the facts you need. For instance you write ‘=95.55 ABV(. Azeotropic)’ as if we need to be told what azeotropic means. Except you are wrong, 95.55ABV isn’t azeotropic. I will leave it to you to research this more rather than just giving you the answer - you’re more likely to believe it if you discover it yourself.

What you say (I must do an experiment’) implies to me you are already running a still. I suggest you stop for a moment and absorb the wealth of information here. You do have to close your eyes to a lot of posts of people who come in green and say ‘i’m New to this forum but if I get a 15% wash does that mean i’m only going to get 81.5% ABV after triple distilling using this magic number of 2.7 I found somewhere on the Interwebz?’ but if you pay attention to the answers give by the old hands with thousands of posts under their belts you will learn a lot that will make your stilling better informed, safer, and tastier.
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Re: Highest ABV to distill

Post by SherrodBrown »

Of course the increment would be different from still to still, even from run to run. By doing a test run you automatically get the some kind of calibration for a specific type..A hint what ABV you should feed your boiler with to get reach your target.
I was wondering because I'm running a reflux still myself. It is a boiler with a reflux unit on top. Pot still have a natural reflux too.
I admit I must learn more on the various types but any pot still would reflux, any hybrid which is more than a sause pan will also reflux , hence my curiosity for the new grammar. Most in here seem to use Azeotropic interchangably for highest reachable ABV. What do I know? Forgive me if I'm wrong. 

If you are going to rebuke something out of the blue, please at least take the time and read through some of the post I've made and see if you understand the conclutions I made. It's just a few. Feel free to rebuke or give me a better understanding. The 2.7 is spent wash to distill ratio from big commercial distilleries. With this attitude your learning curve will be very slow.

I admit I know little or nothing about certain topics and that will not keep me from debating them.
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