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Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 2:49 pm
by GingerTop
Alright, so after a few batches of UJSSM and a few more batches of all-grain beer using malted barley, I think I'm ready to try a true corn whiskey (though probably a blend with barely as well).
And here comes the questions: I understand the mashing process with barley, where enzymes are used from the malting process to convert starch to sugar at around 150 degrees F. Now do those enzymes also convert the starches in unmalted corn if you were to mash the malted barley and unmalted corn (like flaked corn) together? As in the corn using the enzymes from the barley to convert it's sugars. Also, since I mentioned flaked corn, I've been reading that flaked corn can just be added to hot water and convert, like instant oatmeal. Am I understanding this right? That flaked corn can just be added to hot water without a mashing process, cooled, and have yeast pitched to start fermentation?
Or do I need to scrap this idea of converting starches to sugars from unmalted corn and just invest the time in malting my own corn?
I have a few more questions, but I figure I should get these basic ones answered before I ask a million more. Thanks!
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:34 pm
by Dnderhead
you can add hot water to flaked corn..when cooled to 140-150f add malted grain like barley..
then hould for 1/2 hour or more..you can use a cooler and then you wont have to keep heating.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:40 pm
by Fastill
GingerTop wrote:Alright, so after a few batches of UJSSM and a few more batches of all-grain beer using malted barley, I think I'm ready to try a true corn whiskey (though probably a blend with barely as well).
And here comes the questions: I understand the mashing process with barley, where enzymes are used from the malting process to convert starch to sugar at around 150 degrees F. Now do those enzymes also convert the starches in unmalted corn if you were to mash the malted barley and unmalted corn (like flaked corn) together? As in the corn using the enzymes from the barley to convert it's sugars. Also, since I mentioned flaked corn, I've been reading that flaked corn can just be added to hot water and convert, like instant oatmeal. Am I understanding this right? That flaked corn can just be added to hot water without a mashing process, cooled, and have yeast pitched to start fermentation?Flaked corn can be held at mashing temps with malted barley and will convert. Whole cracked corn must be cooked at higher temps to geletanize the starch before mashing.
Or do I need to scrap this idea of converting starches to sugars from unmalted corn and just invest the time in malting my own corn?I use malted 2 row to mash all my corn, works great. I found for me that the time malting corn and the accual conversion I got that it wasn't worth the effort for allgrain.. I will say that all malted corn does have a very unique flavor that I don't get using barley for conversion.
I have a few more questions, but I figure I should get these basic ones answered before I ask a million more. Thanks!
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 5:04 pm
by NcHooch
The flaked corn you're talking about is designed to be an adjunct grain for beer, so u can just combine it with the rest of your grain in a single-step infusion mash.
...don't try that with real corn or you'll be real disappointed with the gravity . As one of the guys mentioned above, real corn needs to be cooked real well to release it's starches, then you cool it and mash with the barley.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:01 pm
by GingerTop
Alright! That sounds easy enough. And how much barley to the flaked corn minimum to convert do y'all use? I'm thinking goin that route would be easier than having to scrub the pot with the whole geletanization process. From what I have read on the forums, it sounds like a lot of work to get the gunk off.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2012 5:51 am
by NcHooch
GingerTop wrote:Alright! That sounds easy enough. And how much barley to the flaked corn minimum to convert do y'all use? I'm thinking goin that route would be easier than having to scrub the pot with the whole geletanization process. From what I have read on the forums, it sounds like a lot of work to get the gunk off.
It's just corn starch ....washes right off after cookin the corn (unless you burn it )
Flaked is easier but more expensive (cheapest I've seen is $1.50/lb versus cracked corn at $.20/pound )
Anyway, 30% of the grain bill is a safe place to start for the malted barley. 7 corn, 3 barley for example .
....if you want to add a pound of
unmalted rye subtract a pound of corn.
....if you want to add a pound of
malted rye subtract a half pound of barley and a half pound of corn.
you might wanna adjust that some after a couple batches, but it's a good place to start
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:13 am
by GingerTop
Sounds good! I think I'm going to start with your Carolina Bourbon recipe first. Run a few washes of that till I get a 2-3 gallons of low wines, then do a spirit run.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:47 am
by Prairiepiss
Are you planning to ferment on the grain or sparge/lauter the wort? If you plan to sparge/lauter you mite consider using rice hulls with the flaked corn? If its anything like flaked wheat. I would expect it to be. It won't sparge/lauter to good. The rice hulls will help with that. Just a suggestion. Not that I really know what I'm talking about. Others mite chime in about it. But if fermenting on the grain I wouldn't worry about it.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:34 am
by Odin
My experience with flaked corn: it wont sparge or lauter. Just git it in a bag and press ...
Odin.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:06 am
by Dnderhead
"Just git it in a bag and press ..."
or let it settle and rack off..this is what i usually do even when using cracked corn as that does not like "sparging" either.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:13 pm
by GingerTop
I hear fermenting on the grain gives more flavor, so I'm thinkin Im gonna take that route. If I do use flaked, putting it in the fridge for 24 hours should settle most of the suspended solids to the bottom before tossing it in the still, right?
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:18 pm
by Durace11
Should, sure. Just handle with care taking it out of the fridge. If you bump anything coming out you will stir it up and get all the "stuff" floating again. I usually move my buckets into position at least 24 hours in advance of racking it off so it can settle again after the move.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 12:20 pm
by Dnderhead
i whould not ferment anything other than corn/maze "on the grain" and just a cooler location will help settle even 5*. its more about the change then how cold it is.
Re: Corn Mashing... Still confused.
Posted: Wed Oct 31, 2012 1:28 pm
by GingerTop
Yea, I was thinking the same method for clearing beer (not distillers beer) of suspended yeast and grain particles would work just fine. That's what I do with all my brews is "cold crash" them to clear em up. Just stick the bucket in my designated cold crashing fridge. Maybe add some biofin or icinglass if it's giving me a hard time (only had to use finning agents once for beer). I'm sure finning agents would be over kill for something you're gonna throw in the still tho.
EDIT: Oh, and I usually just siphon from the fridge anyway so I don't screw up and stir everything up trying to move it. Sits on a shelf, so it's plenty high enough.