Home Distiller

Hi everybody.
I am thinking of building a 2" reflux still, which would be capable to cut the heads like an LM still and easily manageable like a VM still. I would like to run it in high ABV mode as well as taking out also lower ABV flavored output, depending on the mash quality. First I would like to test it in manual mode but later I would like to control it electronically – via microcontroller.
My idea is a CM still with 2 heads – a reflux head and a product head symmetrically placed on the top of the column (see picture). The reflux ratio shall be controlled by the ratio of cooling water directed to reflux resp. product head via the 3-way valve.
Operation: At the start, the valve directs all the coolant to the reflux head, so the product head stays hot and no condensate is produced in it. When the equilibrium is achieved in the column, via the 3-way valve a required ratio for product take off is set. I assume that with the proper setting of coolant flow ratio it should be possible to take off also lower ABV as of neutral alcohol from the product head. As far as the heads are built symmetrically, there should be no problem to take off also lower ABV takeoffs as 40% ABV (as it is with VM heads). Are my thoughts correct? Are there any flaws in the design ?
Open issues: As far as I understand, the reflux heads should be open to atmosphere. There is one issue with my design. At the beginning the product head is not cooled so vapor would blow out of its atm. vent. The same could happen at low reflux ratio (low amount of coolant will flow through the reflux head). So there is a need for some closing /opening mechanism for the air vents depending on the ratio of coolant directed to reflux / product heads. Any other ideas are welcome?
Regards, rz2222

This build has been done with only 1 reflux condenser, search VM/LM combo still. It's a boka with a VM takeoff on the side.
What you are planning sounds a lot like this:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p6981716

I think this is the LM/VM combo:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p6877399

My thoughts are is a bad design for a cm still. Just build the LM VM version and be done with it.

Hi Durace11.
Thanks for your feedback.

Durace11 wrote:This build has been done with only 1 reflux condenser, search VM/LM combo still. It's a boka with a VM takeoff on the side.
What you are planning sounds a lot like this:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 8#p6981716

Actually I have been inspired by this design. The difference is that here the reflux / product ratio is managed by a vapor valve. I would like to bypass it, because I am not sure if I would be able to assemble it preciselly enough so that is does not leak vapors.
Is there anybody, who is running this kind of column head?

Durace11 wrote:I think this is the LM/VM combo:
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p6877399

I have seen also these design drawings.

I think my one is different.

Prairiepiss wrote:My thoughts are is a bad design for a cm still. Just build the LM VM version and be done with it.

Hi Prairiepiss.
Could you please be more detailed ? Why do you think the design is bad ?
Thanks for your feedback in advance.

Actually I have already bought the copper pipes and other stuff to build it. If anybody is interested, I will post some pictures as I will work on it.

rz2222 wrote: Open issues: As far as I understand, the reflux heads should be open to atmosphere. There is one issue with my design. At the beginning the product head is not cooled so vapor would blow out of its atm. vent. The same could happen at low reflux ratio (low amount of coolant will flow through the reflux head). So there is a need for some closing /opening mechanism for the air vents depending on the ratio of coolant directed to reflux / product heads. Any other ideas are welcome?
Regards, rz2222

It seems to me that the only difference between one side and the other is where the liquid goes after it condenses. If you built the product side with a valve on the product you could close the valve and you would have the reflux side or depending on how far it was closed, any variation you could want without closing & opening vents (that could have potential for danger if both got closed by accident).

Build it then. Just remember. Atmosphere vents should not I repeat should not have valves on them. So they can't ever possibly be shut off making a pressure bomb. And they should have a working condenser before them. That van knock down all vapors. If you can full that off with that design. Let US know. But just turning it into an LM would be much simpler to build and run.

Richard7 wrote:

rz2222 wrote: Open issues: As far as I understand, the reflux heads should be open to atmosphere. There is one issue with my design. At the beginning the product head is not cooled so vapor would blow out of its atm. vent. The same could happen at low reflux ratio (low amount of coolant will flow through the reflux head). So there is a need for some closing /opening mechanism for the air vents depending on the ratio of coolant directed to reflux / product heads. Any other ideas are welcome?
Regards, rz2222

It seems to me that the only difference between one side and the other is where the liquid goes after it condenses. If you built the product side with a valve on the product you could close the valve and you would have the reflux side or depending on how far it was closed, any variation you could want without closing & opening vents (that could have potential for danger if both got closed by accident).

Thanks for note. Yes, this is the easiest way and I think I will go this way for the beginning. Later on when adding the E-ARC I could switch to electro-magnetic valves and control them via microcontroller.

Prairiepiss wrote:Build it then. Just remember. Atmosphere vents should not I repeat should not have valves on them. So they can't ever possibly be shut off making a pressure bomb. And they should have a working condenser before them. That van knock down all vapors. If you can full that off with that design. Let US know. But just turning it into an LM would be much simpler to build and run.

Thanks for the feedback Prairiepiss.
I have got also a different idea with having an additional 3-way valve. The atm. vents from the 2 heads would be connected to another 3-way valve. Switching it from one end position to the other end position would open the PC’s vent to atm. or the RC’s vent to atm.. This way it would be sure, both valves are not closed accidentally.

To prevent the still from building up pressure it could have a safety pressure valve. I hope you understand me. As far as English is not my native language, I do not know the right terms for the things.

On further inspection it is not a cm still. It is a LM still. The cooling doesn't control the takeoff. And what you take off would be all that is condensed. Or a portion of the liquid that would be controlled by a valve. So it would be an LM still.
A cm still uses the reflux condenser as a valve. More coolant shuts the valve. Less coolant opens the valve. Then vapor passes through the valve created by the condenser. To be condensed by a product condenser. None of this will happen with this design. It will be controlling liquid only not vapor.

Put a valve on the takeoff port. Run full cooling flow through both condensers. And you have an LM. Changing the coolant flow in either coil will do nothing.

This LM design is posted here on these forums somewhere. And the way you have it drawn looks almost exactly like that drawing. Other then the added valve and plumbing for the condensers.

There is no way for this to be a cm still as drawn. Unless you used the vent ports as takeoff points and put a product condenser on them.

I knew I could find it. It's a vm/lm design.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 08&start=0

Hi Prairiepiss.
Thanks, I appreciate your support and review.

Prairiepiss wrote: Changing the coolant flow in either coil will do nothing.

Why do you think so ? I assume the performance of a condenser (amount of generated condensate) is depending on the temperature and the flow rate of the coolant in the condenser. In my design the temp of coolant entering the PC and RC is the same. So the performance (and the amount of generated condensate) will depend on the coolant flow speed. So f.e., if the 3-way valve will be set to say 10:1 then I assume the condensate production will be also in the ration of 10:1. What is wrong with this assumption ?

Prairiepiss wrote: This LM design is posted here on these forums somewhere. And the way you have it drawn looks almost exactly like that drawing. Other that the added valve and plumbing for the condensers.

Durace11 already noticed me about this thread. See above.

Prairiepiss wrote:There is no way for this to be a cm still as drawn. Unless you used the vent ports as takeoff points and put a product condenser on them.

CM = Coolant management e.g. the amount of product / reflux ration is controlled by controlling the coolant. This is why I think my design is CM still.

Ok maybe I'm not wording things correctly.

This still will not act like a normal cm design still. This still would act like a LM still controlled by cooling management. So adjusting the cooling will not give you the same effect as it would on a normal cm still. And would not operations on the same principals as a cm still does.

A cm still controls vapors not liquids. But it uses a different principals to control the vapors then a VM still. A cm still can be adjusted so that it holds back the next cut. When taking off heads. If adjusted correctly it will stop producing product. Till it is adjusted again. Then it will shut down at the onset of the tails. Again if adjusted correctly. The adjustment for it to collect hearts and shut down at tails. Is the easiest. And happens quite often for cm operators. Once they get to know their still. The other cuts are a little more difficult. But could be done.

Your still will condenser everything and give it to you as product. So there isn't any real cm theory control over your still. Again its a LM still.

What you have done is taken a complicated version of a LM still and made it even more complicated. Instead of having one valve to control everything to having 3 to 5 valves. That you will have to adjust. And from one condenser to 2 to 4 condensers.

Adjusting the cooling to get the desired product will be fiddley at best. Slow to respond and inaccurate.

The vents this is a whole other can of worms. I can only se one way to do it safely. And then you are adding 2 more condensers to a still that already has 2. And if this is not done correctly will be just a big safety hazard.


Since you have not made it over to the welcome center to give us an intro. What background do you have in still design and operation?

Hi Prairiepiss.

Thanks for your reply.

Prairiepiss wrote:Ok maybe I'm not wording things correctly.

This still will not act like a normal cm design still. This still would act like a LM still controlled by cooling management. So adjusting the cooling will not give you the same effect as it would on a normal cm still. And would not operations on the same principals as a cm still does.?

Of course my design is not a standard CM still one. The operation is of course different.

Prairiepiss wrote:A cm still controls vapors not liquids. But it uses a different principals to control the vapors then a VM still. A cm still can be adjusted so that it holds back the next cut. When taking off heads. If adjusted correctly it will stop producing product. Till it is adjusted again. Then it will shut down at the onset of the tails. Again if adjusted correctly. The adjustment for it to collect hearts and shut down at tails. Is the easiest. And happens quite often for cm operators. Once they get to know their still. The other cuts are a little more difficult. But could be done.

I expect from my design be able to make cuts at any time and (with right adjustment) to stop producing the product or continue producing it (until there are vapors ).

Prairiepiss wrote:Your still will condenser everything and give it to you as product. So there isn't any real cm theory control over your still. Again its a LM still.

Here I do not fully understand. Anything, what it would produce (cuts, hears, tails) can be taken only from pruduct condenser's output pipe or it is returned back to the column from the reflux condenser.

Prairiepiss wrote:What you have done is taken a complicated version of a LM still and made it even more complicated. Instead of having one valve to control everything to having 3 to 5 valves. That you will have to adjust. And from one condenser to 2 to 4 condensers.

I do not say it is the simpliest still to build. But to operate it should be quite straitforward.

Prairiepiss wrote:Adjusting the cooling to get the desired product will be fiddley at best. Slow to respond and inaccurate.

The vents this is a whole other can of worms. I can only se one way to do it safely. And then you are adding 2 more condensers to a still that already has 2. And if this is not done correctly will be just a big safety hazard.

Since you have not made it over to the welcome center to give us an intro. What background do you have in still design and operation?

May be you are right. The only way how to find it out is to build one and try it !

I have no background in still design. My knowledge is from studying this and other distiller pages. They are full of valuable info - thanks to everybody !
I constructed one simple pot still and did a couple of runs this year. The results were great and have encouraged me to continue in this hobby and building a better still.

Have fun building it. Let us know how it works for you.

Hi rz2222,

You mentioned in the original post that you will be using a microcontroller once you get things working manually. That was exactly my approach, so I included the microcontroller along with the still build. It has been very handy to be able to put tasks to the microcontroller. My first use for it was to control the power in the boiler, then I used it to measure the reflux ratio.

Still design and building is fascinating, but the actual running of the still is boring and tedious, so I'm thinking of ways to use the microcontroller to take over this mundane work.

Do you have a microcontroller that you usually use? I use the Zilog development system which you can see here from DigiKey: http://www.digikey.ca/product-search/en ... g&x=9&y=26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . Here is the introductory manual: http://www.zilog.com/docs/z8encore/devtools/um0151.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The C compiler that comes with it is full-function ANSI compatible. Documentation is complete and well-written.

M

Prairiepiss wrote:Have fun building it. Let us know how it works for you.

Thanks I will post some photos from build. I hope I will find time to start the build after Christmass time. Also some experiences once running it.

Maritimer wrote:Hi rz2222,

You mentioned in the original post that you will be using a microcontroller once you get things working manually. That was exactly my approach, so I included the microcontroller along with the still build. It has been very handy to be able to put tasks to the microcontroller. My first use for it was to control the power in the boiler, then I used it to measure the reflux ratio.

Still design and building is fascinating, but the actual running of the still is boring and tedious, so I'm thinking of ways to use the microcontroller to take over this mundane work.

Do you have a microcontroller that you usually use? I use the Zilog development system which you can see here from DigiKey: http://www.digikey.ca/product-search/en ... g&x=9&y=26" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . Here is the introductory manual: http://www.zilog.com/docs/z8encore/devtools/um0151.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The C compiler that comes with it is full-function ANSI compatible. Documentation is complete and well-written.

M

Hi Maritimer.
Great! I am pleased that there is another one having the same idea to control it with microcontroller. I have bought an XL-star development board more than a year ago: http://www.element14.com/community/docs ... demo-board" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
already did some programming and debugging with it - like lighting the LEDs, PWM, ADC, ...
My idea is to measure the boiler temperature, 2 coolant in and 2 coolant out temps. and the take-out vapor temp. Based on the measured temps. the microcontroller should control the boiler heat and coolant ratio and/or flow. This is just a basic idea. I am myself curious if I will be able to make it run.

Hi rz2222,

That looks very interesting. I've registered at element14 and will check it out.

M

I have started the build with condensers. Decided for double wound coils for head condensers. I have had two 4,5 meter pipes from scrap yard, OD of 6,5 mm. Unfortunately, they were bent hardly, almost broken on several places. So first I annealed them on bent locations, straighten and cleaned with SS scrubs. I have filled the tubes with well dried sand before bending. As far as I didn’t found the best mandrels for winding I have improvised a bit. See the photos below.

The two condenser coils ready side by side The next step will be to solder them to caps and cutting the housing for reflux and product condensers.

Nice job on the coils!

Thanks Bushman. Winding the coils took me almost 3 days.
In the meantime the caps are soldered to the coils and the reflux and product heads are cut. I have collected the remaining parts of column. As a 3 way valve I will use a used faucet.

As others already have pointed out..it is a rather complicated design you have choosen.
But i see you did a good job with the copperwork .
Funny..one of my designideas were similar (actually i got the thought by looking at a V2 Harley motor..weird.. ).
I ended up with a different design anyway.
Would be nice if you can post some details/experiances with it when you get it fired up once you finished your build.

Happy stilling...

Thanks Danespirit.
Yes, the design is a bit more complicated as some others, hopefully the operation will be easier.
The build si slowly progressing The heads are soldered to the column and the product vapor lock to the product head.

Looks pretty good.
But you should take care with the brass connection to your valve. It might contain lead.Please do a test on it before you start your first run.
Intressting build...

Hi Danespirite.
Thanks for notice. I have checked it in the shop. Shall not contain lead, as far as it is for drink water plumbing. Do you have any other means how to check in mind?
In the meantime I have progressed a bit. The build is completed, just the insulation is missing. I hope during the weekend will have time to run it