Home Distiller

After posting in this thread about airing out spirits after being distilled.
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... =4&t=34555
I had some thoughts. Many say oxygen is really the devil when it come to aging spirits. And some of the points are valid. I recommend for people to air their product out for 24 to 48 hours before they make their cuts. And the fact that you don't want to much oxygen to be introduced. Is always brought up eventualy. So what is it with airing out the distillate off the still that makes the smell and taste change so much. I will add here the outcome of this for different recipes can be quite different.

It's been speculated that what happens is trace amounts of undesirable alcohols are actually evaporating. And leaving behind the good stuff. So what if we combined this with the theory you don't want to introduce oxygen. What would happen if the spirits were to be aired out in a no oxygen environment? Let's say the product was aired out in a CO2 it nitrogen environment? In order for the undesirable alcohols to evaporation. They need somewhere to go. So a small sealed container wouldn't be best suited for this. Not enough air space for the evaporated alcohols to dissipate within it. So a larger space would be needed. How big? Would the outcome be the same as airing out in the open air?

I personaly have found airing new distillate off the still makes a nice difference in some recipes. And not Much difference in others. My AG wheat for example. Airing out did nothing fore it. We had talked a while back about the possibility of either sugarheads or high ABV ferments lead to these more undesirables. And low ABV ferments will have less of them.

I guess what I'm asking it this. Could airing out like I recommend a lot be done in a CO2 or nitrogen environment. And still get the same outcome? Without introducing oxygen?

It's always been my opinion that it's some evaporation and some stabilization that happens in the airing .

...not sure how you could measure your results if you did a side by side airing ....I tend to think it would be impossible to tell the difference

PP, this seems to me to be another movement to the opposite extreme.

Much hype surrounds aging and all of the contrived methods to improve the process. The reality is that we already know the best practices for handling distillate after its produced. Some oxygen is beneficial to the process. Otherwise, the industry wide best practices dictate limiting excess oxygen exposure and maintaining the integrity of the distillate by having it in closed containers with little to no headspace.

I do not believe that higher alcohols evaporate selectively from open fresh distillate. I believe from my research that there are many complex chemical reactions happening in a fresh distillate. Oxidation of some of the more offensive compounds is an important part of the aging process. Those compounds that cause fresh distillate to have that characteristic harsh, raw smell and flavor are broken down into less offensive compounds. The amount of oxygen exposure that helps these reactions along is easily created while handling your fresh distillate. Any more oxygen exposure risks oxidizing beneficial flavor compounds. That seems to be conventional wisdom in the distilling world.

This has me thinking, I'll post later to prevent PWD. (posting while drunk)

Haha!

I just posted that while drinking....

I think you should post both!

Very good question PP. Extensive oxidation of alcohol does impart negative flavors. Perhaps a combination of a small amount of oxidation plus some overall evaporation improves the overall taste. I'm guessing here, but I would guess a small amount of oxidation may be a positive influence on flavor.

junkyard dawg wrote:PP, this seems to me to be another movement to the opposite extreme.

Much hype surrounds aging and all of the contrived methods to improve the process. The reality is that we already know the best practices for handling distillate after its produced. Some oxygen is beneficial to the process. Otherwise, the industry wide best practices dictate limiting excess oxygen exposure and maintaining the integrity of the distillate by having it in closed containers with little to no headspace.

I do not believe that higher alcohols evaporate selectively from open fresh distillate. I believe from my research that there are many complex chemical reactions happening in a fresh distillate. Oxidation of some of the more offensive compounds is an important part of the aging process. Those compounds that cause fresh distillate to have that characteristic harsh, raw smell and flavor are broken down into less offensive compounds. The amount of oxygen exposure that helps these reactions along is easily created while handling your fresh distillate. Any more oxygen exposure risks oxidizing beneficial flavor compounds. That seems to be .

Just was throwing a thought on the table.

So what your saying here is when I air out my fresh distillate. Nothing evapotates and what happens is the oxidation that normally takes years using the conventional tried and true ways. Is done in a few days? And since I did the airing over time this will harm the spirit more then help.

Keep in mind I'm not really talking one kind of spirit over another kind. So I'm talking vodka, whitedog, and whatever else. Whether it will be aged or drank a week later.

And I would like to point out that the conventional wisdom in the distilling world also likes to make a crappy product and tell us it is the best. But many of us know this to not be true. They could make a much better product. If money wasn't the main driving factor. And pride was.

MitchyBourbon wrote:Very good question PP. Extensive oxidation of alcohol does impart negative flavors. Perhaps a combination of a small amount of oxidation plus some overall evaporation improves the overall taste. I'm guessing here, but I would guess a small amount of oxidation may be a positive influence on flavor.

What would the definition of extensive oxidation be? Or better question would it be measurable? Is there a time when it doesn't mater? Say when it will be bottled shortly after being distilled? Maybe?

If you ever took a swig from a very old bottle of vodka, gin, or whatever that wasn't properly sealed, it leaves a bad after taste. In my mind 24 or 48 hours is not extensive. As for measuring, I have no idea.

well OK, junkyard dawg, Here goes my drunk post.


I may try to air out my next run with a split of argon (an inert gas) VS oxygen. ( So far I only had to google 2 words and back up to correct misspells 8 times. LOL).

Now, would co2 be better than argon? Both are inert from what I remember.

But I guess one of the important things is VS oxygen.

Should the gas be bubbled through the spirits during this trail? Or just a vapor on top of the spirits?

Now last but not least are you going to trust me and my buddies as Judges or do I need to send everyone a sample to have a more uniform opinion?

As short as this post is, it only took about 30 min to post, as me and my wife talked about this that and the other!

I'll post sober tomorrow!

Yes, please send me some samples!

I think argon would be the same. CO2 and nitrogen was what same to mind when I made the post. Bubbling the gas through the spirits us not what I had intended.

yes, send me a sample too!

I would think Nitrogen or Co2 would be my first two choices. Doesn't argon stink like hell?

If the goal of your trial is to have one sample with very little O2 exposure and one with lots of exposure... I'm not sure what the best way to test would be. I think following winemaker protocols and purging the container would be sufficient. I don't know why you would need to bubble inert gas thru a sample. How to carry out a trial is worthy of some thought tho...

PP, I will try to answer as best as I can...

But its gonna have to wait till morning....

I don't think Argon has much smell at all. It is used in those wine preserver gas bottles that wine shops sell to preserve your partially drank bottles. I also use it with my welder and have never noticed much of a smell.

cheers
stilly

Yes, you are correct. Something in the trimix gas stinks.

I always air the alcohol before making final cuts. I made the comment in the other thread about vacuum sealing only as I read it and not tried it. My conflict is aging in my barrels. The barrel instructions say not to fill the smaller barrels all the way as temp changes the wood expands and contracts. So how does that play with not allowing oxygen to the alcohol or are you talking about after bottling say in a year or so.

Bushman wrote:I always air the alcohol before making final cuts. I made the comment in the other thread about vacuum sealing only as I read it and not tried it. My conflict is aging in my barrels. The barrel instructions say not to fill the smaller barrels all the way as temp changes the wood expands and contracts. So how does that play with not allowing oxygen to the alcohol or are you talking about after bottling say in a year or so.

First off, those barrel instructions are incorrect. Wood is thermally stable. Moisture content is the only thing that will cause wood to expand and contract. So, I always fill my barrels completely, just the act of filling the barrel introduces enough oxygen, no head space is necessary.

As I have stated in other post, I totally concur with JD here.

Big R

Ok, Mr P.

I'm going to drink my coffee and try to address the questions you posed.

Many say oxygen is really the devil when it come to aging spirits.

Oxygen is essential to the process. Not the devil at all. Poor handling of distillate is the devil. I would say that leaving containers of distillate open for more than 24 hours is contrary to the best practices for handling any food or beverage.

So what your saying here is when I air out my fresh distillate. Nothing evapotates and what happens is the oxidation that normally takes years using the conventional tried and true ways. Is done in a few days?

Evaporation is clearly taking place. I don't buy into the notion that some unnamed 'higher alcohols' are evaporating selectively and leaving behind the good stuff. I do buy into the idea that something is evaporating and chemical changes are happening rapidly in fresh distillate.
Some of the changes are documented here

http://distillers.tastylime.net/newSite ... /index.htm

and here

http://distillers.tastylime.net/newSite ... /index.htm

There are many other articles and sources for info on maturing of spirits, but I have not come across anything addressing the changes in the first 24 hours of life for a fresh distillate. I haven't looked very hard either... but its safe to say I don't think oxidation that normally takes years years happens in a few days of 'airing'.

And I would like to point out that the conventional wisdom in the distilling world also likes to make a crappy product and tell us it is the best.

Hey, a homegrown tomato is always going to be better than the waxy pale pink things you buy in the grocery. I don't see the relevance to airing tho.

If you ever took a swig from a very old bottle of vodka, gin, or whatever that wasn't properly sealed, it leaves a bad after taste.

This is common knowledge. or at least I thought it was... Excess oxidation is undesirable. This is talked about by some connoisseurs of fine spirits. Changes happen to a bottle of spirits after its opened. Flavors begin to degrade if a bottle sits on the shelf only half full. This phenomenon is well known... This is the main point of my discussion of properly handling your distillate. Just as a bottle sitting on the shelf only half full is slowly degrading, so is a keg of spirits thats aging only half full or worse, open to the atmosphere.

So, the coffee is empty... I hope this conversation continues... I really like this subject. I know I have not said much about airing beyond "something is happening". Hopefully others will weigh in with their ideas.

The barrel instructions say not to fill the smaller barrels all the way as temp changes the wood expands and contracts.

The alcohol expands and contracts... Thats why we have alcohol thermometers. Thats a puzzling instruction...

I guess I'm not really explaining what I wanted from this thread.

Yes I air my distillate before making cuts. I have found with most but not all recipes. It makes it much easier to make the cuts. And improves smell and tastes.

Now what I was trying to find. Is there a way to do this without oxygen exposures. That many are so bent on not happening. If its possible?

Truthfully I have a hard time making cuts when I don't air it out. It all smells and tastes like shit to me. But after airing I can distinguish the good from the bad. And the good smells and tastes good.

So if oxygen exposure is the devil. I would like to find a solution to my problem that doesn't involve oxygen.

I would also say I do beleave evaporation plays a part in it. And may have something to do with the Marangoni effect or tears of wine.

Was posting while you were JD. Will have to get back to your post.

junkyard dawg wrote:

The barrel instructions say not to fill the smaller barrels all the way as temp changes the wood expands and contracts.

The alcohol expands and contracts... Thats why we have alcohol thermometers. Thats a puzzling instruction...

I've had the barrels for several years so I went back to get the instructions to make sure my facts are correct. Near the end of the page of instructions there is the following word for word:

Note: Understanding that fluctuations in temperature and relative humidity will cause the barrel to take on or lose moisture and the timber will expand or shrink accordingly.

This is interesting because I know I read somewhere not to fill them to the top but I don't see them in these instructions. However it does say to rotate the barrels every several weeks a quarter of a turn.

Prairiepiss wrote: Let's say the product was aired out in a CO2 it nitrogen environment? In order for the undesirable alcohols to evaporation. They need somewhere to go. So a small sealed container wouldn't be best suited for this. Not enough air space for the evaporated alcohols to dissipate within it. So a larger space would be needed. How big? Would the outcome be the same as airing out in the open air?

I wonder if a pint in the bottom of a gallon pickle jar would give enough space? I'm sure the space is going to effect the result. Would the use of a food safe plastic bucket be bad as long as nothing could condensate and drip back in(like with a stainless steel salad bowl umbrella over the jar)?

Just some thoughts, still thinking

OK just had another thought on this. Mr.P you want to air out without O2. most of the gasses talked about so far are heavier than air, I.E. CO2, Argon, nitrogen,
It seems to me the heavier the gas the less room for airing. What if you use Helium. It may even speed up the "airing without O2" process due to the lower density of the gas.

" What if you use Helium. It may even speed up the "airing"
if you want to "speed up" airing, just use a aquarium pump,but caution it really speeds it up.

I don't know anything. But this thread does make me wonder about pulling a vacuum on a jar. My vacuum sealer does have an attachment for jars but I've never used it like that.

wacabi1, I thought about a vacuum too. Just a note on that.....I have learned from experience that pulling a strong vacuum on glass can be dangerous! A long time ago on an unrelated project, I was using a vacuum pump on a flat sided jar and it imploded. Just a word of caution for anyone who wants to suck the air out of a jar!

Interesting thread. Canning jars are made to handle a vacuum, so good quality ones should be OK. I've thought about the vacuum thing too, but have never done anything with it.

Pp,

Who is saying that oxygen is the devil? To the point that you need to blanket you distillate with inert gas?

Thats the other extreme. One extreme is leaving your distillate open for, ever... The other is blanketing the fresh distillate with inert gas? To make cuts?

I would like to find a solution to my problem that doesn't involve oxygen.

I don't think you have a problem.

I'm personally way too lazy and don't produce near enough to worry about any of that. If making cuts is my issue then I would simply wait a little longer to sniff my collection of small numbered and sealed jars. If making cuts is the issue, I just don't think its that terribly critical to be that accurate. There is a lot of gray area on both sides of the hearts.... Its not going to hurt you to drift a little to either side. Some might think thats not artisan enough. But thats a funny thing to think if you haven't tried what someone makes.

junkyard dawg wrote:
Evaporation is clearly taking place. I don't buy into the notion that some unnamed 'higher alcohols' are evaporating selectively and leaving behind the good stuff.

I agree that they are not evaporating selectively, but they are evaporating, and at a higher rate than the good stuff. That is why they are considered more 'volatile', they have a higher (equilibrium) vapor pressure and will evaporate at a higher rate under the same conditions. Methyl alcohol has nearly 3 times the vapor pressure of ethyl alcohol, for instance. If you are running a pot still and you smear a bit of higher lower alcohols (see following posts)into the heads or even hearts, they will evaporate out at a much higher rate. Just something to consider.

just to point something out,,acetone,methanol etc.(fores), are not higher alcohols,,they are lower alcohols.
(this mite save some confusion down the road)