ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

[seabass]

It also depends on what you're making. I'm not trying to diminish what you're saying, I just think that spelling out the steps required for a successful 10-12% ag will be more effective at deterring noobs than just saying don't do it.

The only reason I would go above 10% in abv for distilling would be for something other than whiskey. I’m personally aiming for about 8-9%, but that's because of abv vs amount of flavor.

BTW, the yeast I used for the 12% barley wine at 62f was wyeast scotch ale yeast. It will tackle a 12% abv all the way down to the low 50s. But it requires gigantic yeast starters.

[bellybuster]

I just think that spelling out the steps required for a successful 10-12% ag will be more effective at deterring noobs than just saying don't do it.
.

Probably very true, wet paint sign syndrome

[blind drunk]

I just think that spelling out the steps required for a successful 10-12% ag will be more effective at deterring noobs than just saying don't do it..

That's easy to do; just grind the malt, sift out the bran/outer layer bits and ferment on the grain. Not that hard to do. That's not the point, tho.

[bellybuster]

I just think that spelling out the steps required for a successful 10-12% ag will be more effective at deterring noobs than just saying don't do it..

That's easy to do; just grind the malt, sift out the bran/outer layer bits and ferment on the grain. Not that hard to do. That's not the point, tho.

The much needed mashing step is missing.

[blind drunk]

I'm assuming the mashing step; not that hard.

[Prairiepiss]

Even if I could. I won't ever take a ferment above 8%ish ever again. For distilling. Neither AG or sugarhead. There is no reason to do it. And many reasons not to do it.

I'm not saying I won't ever ferment higher then 8%. I have 4 wines sitting here at around 12% or higher. And I have some grains laid out to brew a higher ABV beer. But I won't do it for distilling. And wines and beers are different.

From my recent experiments I just get a much better product at a lower ABV. Sure you don't get as much from a run. But what you do get is so much better. This is where you have to let go of the greed. And embrace making a better product.

[Jimbo]

Even if I could. I won't ever take a ferment above 8%ish ever again. For distilling. Neither AG or sugarhead. There is no reason to do it. And many reasons not to do it.

I'm not saying I won't ever ferment higher then 8%. I have 4 wines sitting here at around 12% or higher. And I have some grains laid out to brew a higher ABV beer. But I won't do it for distilling. And wines and beers are different.

From my recent experiments I just get a much better product at a lower ABV. Sure you don't get as much from a run. But what you do get is so much better. This is where you have to let go of the greed. And embrace making a better product.

Amen.

[seabass]

I just think that spelling out the steps required for a successful 10-12% ag will be more effective at deterring noobs than just saying don't do it..

That's easy to do; just grind the malt, sift out the bran/outer layer bits and ferment on the grain. Not that hard to do. That's not the point, tho.

The much needed mashing step is missing.

As is the much needed yeast starter and fermentation temp control.

[blind drunk]

As is the much needed yeast starter and fermentation temp control.

Not that hard.

I guess yer missing my point. The spirit of the original post is a simple idea for folks new here or new to all grain. I was just trying to point out another way of achieving the high abv all grain wort. Yes, I left out the details, but again, it's not that hard. But that's not the point, either. Lots of way to skin a cat, but when you're new, a simple and realistic outline with realistic expectations, is enough. Then one can add complexity if necessary.

[Jimbo]

I just think that spelling out the steps required for a successful 10-12% ag will be more effective at deterring noobs than just saying don't do it..

That's easy to do; just grind the malt, sift out the bran/outer layer bits and ferment on the grain. Not that hard to do. That's not the point, tho.

The much needed mashing step is missing.

As is the much needed yeast starter and fermentation temp control.

This thread/post isint a treatise on everything you need to know to make a successful malt whiskey. Its a plea to keep the ABV's down into reasonable numbers, the first step in being successful. A basic rule noobs break regularly. You Seabass on the other hand are the one here who has contributed in a manner to continue to ensure their failure. Start another post, on yeast starters, or temp control, or the whole bloody shootin match if youre feeling ambitious, and add value and help for the new guys, instead of using this post to grand stand on yoru awesome mashing skills, and now on whats missing. Fucking please.

[Dnderhead]

sounds to me like someone wants to do this but dont know anything about mashing.
better learn to walk first.
here is a good start....http://www.howtobrew.com/section3/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[bellybuster]

I think Mr seabass was actually pointing out that there is indeed more to it and it is not necessarily easy. I think he was agreeing with you.

[Jimbo]

Doesnt seem like he was agreeing with much, rather pointing out that my way of steering the new folk was 'bad', and using exceptions to the rule to prove me wrong. whatever. I dont give a shit. Just wnated to try helping someone who wants to try doing an AG. And I stand by my original comment that they'll have a lot better chance of success making a strong beer at 7% and distilling, than mashing heroics to push it to 10-12. But here we go again.

[bellybuster]

I just meant in the last post yo quoted.

[seabass]

You're right. High gravity ag is bad. It kills babies and kittens. No exceptions.

[seabass]

I think Mr seabass was actually pointing out that there is indeed more to it and it is not necessarily easy. I think he was agreeing with you.

Exactly. I was saying that we should explain why it is difficult and what is required to deter instead of saying its too hard for noobs.

[Jimbo]

Here's the problem with trying to write a simple post on a forum to give new folk some guidance. You could say, 'do x, y and z and you'll have a good chance for success' And INEVITABLY there will be those that see it as an invitation to list the exceptions to x, y and z, and throw the post entirely into the weeds. It happens time and again here. The advice was simple and true. But Seabass grandstanded on his mashing skills and wants to include instruction on making a 10-12% ABV AG's, assine for whiskey really, for a lot of reasons. Rad talked about 2 day ferments of 14%, possible for the adventurous I guess. Altho I dont know whats the rush and what the reason to push it, both compromise quality, whats the hurry, I guess everyone wants it now. And even belly pointed out the exception to fermenting at 62, using a lager yeast (40's preferred temp) to make a 'steam beer' type ferment. Does it work, sure, is it normal, no it makes a ton of esters. Is it good advice for the noobs on this novice distillers area? no, just adds confusion.

I give up. I wont be writing any more 'good advice' posts. Too God damned frustrating.

Go ahead, I dare any of you to post on yeast this or ferment that. Ill SHRED you with the exceptions. And then maybe youll understand my frustration.

[seabass]

The problem about a simple post about a complicated topic is that it isn't so simple. So give up or just accept that its an open Forum with differing opinions. Grandstanding?

[Jimbo]

It is simple. A lot of new folk here could have real success with all grain mashes with some simple rules to learn by. All Grain mashes scare a lot of (most) people away, and shouldnt. I would love to see more all grainers on here, and could, if it was possible to write a post that said do these 6 things and you'll have an all grain whiskey you can be proud of. But its impossible. Everyone chimes in with their extraordinary exemptions and heroics and contortions.

Look at the directory below the banner above. Its says 'Novice Distillers' Thats the folder we're in. So who's wrong. Me trying to help a new guy become an all grainer. Or you talking about doing a barley wine wash for whiskey, something that no noob should attempt until he can walk first. Like dnder said below. And IMO (and Piss's opinion) no one should do if they want to make a quality whiskey. Now theres a topic for the normal posting area for us to bash each other around on.

[rad14701]

jimdo64, this is but a small dose of what I, and the rest of the management, goes through every day...

Write-ups are one thing, but posting in the open forums is yet another... That's why we have a separate forum for doing write-ups... At least I think we still do...

I think part of the problem is that the title of this topic doesn't explicitly state "All Grain" at all, so the crux of the topic became ambiguous...

[Jimbo]

I know, I see it too. Maddening sometimes huh. Yes, I fucked up the title. Its misleading, some folk understandably even thought i was talking about the final distillate.

I tried.

[seabass]

You're the one bashing. I was taking issue with misinformation. I disagree with a lot of what you have written. I disagree with telling noobs not to do something because its difficult without a good explanation why. I appreciate you trying to help out the novices, but you're getting all worked up because someone disagrees with you and provided reasons why. You are clearly not capable of a discussion and just want to preach.

[Jimbo]

Shit even Im forgetting the original point. Which is this. Keep the ABV of the mash/wash down to reasonable numbers, for sugarheads too, and you'll have much better chance for success.

I originally wrote it when I saw someone try to get a 20% sugarwash going, and then saw 2 people add sugar to an otherwise fine AG mash cause they didnt think the ABV potential was high enough, ugh.

[Jimbo]

I disagree with a lot of what you have written. I disagree with telling noobs not to do something because its difficult without a good explanation why.

Not sure what you disagre alot with, but youre free to disagree, and I did explain why...

A successful all grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-7%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill, boiling down beer wort and other tricks, reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon makers are happy with a strong beer level of 6-7% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also (stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide,Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink).

[Doogie]

OK, new guy here to light-weigh in.

I got me some good turbo yeast. kept feeding the sugar in, popped about 14% ABV - WoooHOOOO!!!!!!!!!
Stripped
Spirit ran
Stuff tasted like demon burning shit

I am hoping oaking it will calm it down ... see you in at least a half year before I decide if the booze bottles are more valuable than the likker inside

Just finished a birdwashers - cut it off at 1.00 SG with a start of 1.08 ... yes, it could have gone a bit longer ... yes, I could have fed more sugar before it crapped out entirely.

Instead, I drained all but 10L (out of 60L) and started another batch.

While I look at my 2 x 1.75L of starfish burner, and reading this, can you guess which batch I am drinking from ... less than 3 hours after I spirit run it?

No Turbos, No crazy high ABV - I just produced the equivilant of $175-$200 in booze for $30

Take it from a new guy ....

[Beerbrewer]

I've been an all grain brewer for some 12 odd years and I find it very difficult to get a beer of 10-12%abv just with all grain, for one thing I use sugar in anything over 6-7% to dillute the nitrogen content.

The only way I have got beers above 8%abv is with adding sugar and even then I use a second generation yeast which takes a few weeks to do it's job and usually throws off a fair few phenols.

You may be able to get a high alcohol yield using parti gyle techniques but I've never done this, always seemed to wasteful for me.

[bellybuster]

this one's already derailed so may as well keep going.
No one said for new brewers to push the limits. It was merely stated that telling them outright not to is probably the wrong way to go about it. Just like turbos, don't tell'm it's wrong because it isn't. Not advised but not wrong. There's tons of folks quite happy with turbo results but they wouldn't dare post here.
Personally I'm a firm believer in pushing things and testing the limits. Albeit after you learn the process and know whats happening.

I spend allot of time here and see the posts you're trying to quell every day, hell, three times a day. Most of those will post the question anyway. A good number of those post the question, get hammered by folks for being stoopid and disappear never to be seen again. A better option might be to show them why the idea is flawed ..if it is, or help them get to the place they want to go.

A guy comes on and asks if he can make a 12% mash...the correct answer is sure you can but if you keep it down to 5-7% you'll probably have a better time of things. Read John Palmers "How to Brew", heres a link.

[noobshine]

"Stuff tasted like demon burning shit

I am hoping oaking it will calm it down ... see you in at least a half year before I decide if the booze bottles are more valuable than the likker inside"

I LOLd hard

just finishing up my 1st malted (plus a little sugar) batch ever. sittin about .99 right now. lookin forward to distillin it next wknd. really do appreciate the experienced guys original postings in the novice section.

[Doogie]

@Belly - I understand your point ... for a distilling group, I do find, at times this group can be unrefined, but in their defence, the info is there, and the repetative nature of "do as indicated" is probably a bit annoying at times. Pushing the limits is fine, but a novice, as myself, should master the basics instead of making rocket fuel. Glad I only pissed away about $20 in ingredients before birdwatching it and doing it correctly. Push the limits, experiment and such when you are good (not great) at what you do.

@everyone - OK, I am new - new like a lot of you --- set up a birdwatchers, go to basics, learn yer setup, learn to run, and you will learn to love it. This is what I did not do, and now what I am doing. Listen to the old guys - they may be grumpy at times, but in the long run this is a volunteer information session, and all you want to do is make some damn fine likker for cheap right - oh and you dont want people to think yer blindness was from jerkin off right? Listen, start basic, learn ... enjoy

[Doogie]

Another rookie analogy --

OK, so you make a wack of wash - I just did 60L of wash ... and resulted in 7L of really nice 45% coke additive.
I did that with about 10% ABV

Now, by the time I have finished drinking, and giving to close family those 7L, the next batch will be run and waiting for someone's gullet.
Does the 4% or more really matter for the sake of quality? Really - adding 40% more to the 7L (2.8L) at $4.28/L for 7L really that important?

With a $3.06 cost on 14% ABV - for $1.22/L more, you get a nicer, cleaner product ... oh, and those turbos are probably more expensive right - factor that in ...