ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

There seems to be a belief that ABV's need to be pushed as high as possible here in HD by the new folk. I see it all over, folks trying to push sugar heads into the high teens, or really frustrating for me as an AG brewer, folks adding sugar to an otherwise perfect All grain mash to get it up into the 8+ numbers! AHHH STOP! i dont know if its greed, or lack of understanding of AG mashes, or even for the sugar head folk lack of understanding what they're doing to the yeast and quality of their drink.

A successful all grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-7%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill, boiling down beer wort and other tricks, reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon makers are happy with a strong beer level of 6-7% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also (stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide,Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink).

This applies to the sugarhead folk too. Keep your ABV down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead guru's here can say whats reasonable, higher than 6-7 but not high teens), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and youre yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by ajshomebrew »

WELL STATED !!! I could not agree more......why the push to hit everclear top abv when ya cant drink the stuff anyway just seems pointless. Try a few Sweetfeed runs, Oak it , age it by rapid temp changes and soon you have a nice smooth whiskey that everyone loves.

If burning a hole in your esophagus is your thing, all I can say is good luck !! You can make a perfectly good decent neutral shine in a pot still and still be in the 140-150 proof ( 70% abv ) I buy a few essences from suppliers or extracts from walmart and I have a good stock of variety on hand..

Do we all need Racecar Fuel ? :) to each their own I guess.....be safe......don't tell.....don't sell
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Odin »

In taste rich likker, the highest ABV you should should for is the ABV you want to age on. Say you want to age on wood at 60%, your perfect "score" after distillation and final cuts should be a hearts fraction of 60%. Why? Well, if it were 70%, you would have to water it down. Water it down = diluting. And is it that watery taste you are after? Don't think so.

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by seabass »

jimdo64 wrote:There seems to be a belief that ABV's need to be pushed as high as possible here in HD by the new folk. I see it all over, folks trying to push sugar heads into the high teens, or really frustrating for me as an AG brewer, folks adding sugar to an otherwise perfect All grain mash to get it up into the 8+ numbers! AHHH STOP! i dont know if its greed, or lack of understanding of AG mashes, or even for the sugar head folk lack of understanding what they're doing to the yeast and quality of their drink.

A successful all grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-7%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill, boiling down beer wort and other tricks, reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon makers are happy with a strong beer level of 6-7% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also (stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide,Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink).

This applies to the sugarhead folk too. Keep your ABV down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead guru's here can say whats reasonable, higher than 6-7 but not high teens), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and youre yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.

I respectfully disagree. The difficulty of getting AG above 7% all depends on what you're mashing. A mostly barley mash is extremely easy to get into the 10-12% region. Pitch a proper amount of yeast and keep the fermentation temp down and you're good. Add in grains that gum up and things definitely get difficult. But to flat out say that fermentations above 7% is bad for yeast is wrong. Fermentation temp, aeration, pitching rate, nutrients, all need to be taken into account, but it's not difficult. If you ignore those things with higher abv, you are stressing out your yeast causing them to dump higher alcohols, esters and possibly just give up.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Odin »

10 to 12% in an AG barley? In my opinion that would be a world record. I would say: 7.5 to 8.5% is what you are aiming for.

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dnderhead »

"10 to 12% in an AG barley? In my opinion that would be a world record."
not really,,make it like a "party gale"
then when you "sparg" save this to make the next batch with.
there is a few things to do,when converting use lower temperatures in the 145f /63c? range. use a high gravity yeast like WLP099,,and at rather cool temperatures. (60f/16c?)
if you (as many do) try to hurry this along by rising the temperature of ferment.your just wasting your time, as it will make more off flavors and will defeat the whole purpose.
you will just have to "make bigger cuts"
the ferment temperature is one big mistake many make even with sugar.as you rise the temperature to "hurry"the ferment you are making more "off" flavors.take a lesion from the
lager brewers.
in conclusion :is it worth it? probably not as you can make two or three ferments at 7% while you was making one "hi gravity"
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by seabass »

Odin wrote:10 to 12% in an AG barley? In my opinion that would be a world record. I would say: 7.5 to 8.5% is what you are aiming for.

Odin.
I make several barleywines a year. An ale yeast like the wyeasy scotch ale yeast can easily handle that. Again its all about pitching rate and temperature. It makes sense to try not to stress the yeast, but most ale yeast can handle 10% with no problem.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by BrooklynTech »

Although not trying for the teens I just mashed 2 washes of 7 lbs of Pilsner each and then combined to ferment. I did boil it down from about 4.75 gallons to about 4.2 gallons. My ABV was 9.3. I fermented in a temp controlled freezer at about 60* for a month. The yeast was one pack dry K-97. don't think I pushed it to hard.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Gaztops »

I listen and take note from the more experienced people and always try to keep the ABV of my sugar washes at around 10%. I also dillute the distillate to 40% ABV, even half of that if I am making a liqueur
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Odin »

10 to 12% on an All Grain malted barley? Okay, I am trying to wrap my head around this ... how much kilo's of ground malted barley would one need per 20 liters of water? 1 kilo per 3 liters?

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Good discussion. Seabass, yes I make barley wines too. But they're loaded with esters and they take FOREVER to ferment out. I think dunder captured it well here
Dnderhead wrote: in conclusion :is it worth it? probably not as you can make two or three ferments at 7% while you was making one "hi gravity"
and here
Dnderhead wrote: the ferment temperature is one big mistake many make even with sugar.as you rise the temperature to "hurry"the ferment you are making more "off" flavors."

This was exactly the point of my post. Sure there's a few exceptions. But by and large, one common mistake of new folks around here is pushing ABV of their mash/wash as high as possible, when single digit % for AG's is normal, even 6-8% range and what the industry does, for good reason. And 18% sugar washes is just nuts. They do this, push their ABV, dont aerate, dont pitch right, and then spend hours complaining to us here about their stuck ferments or high FG's, and flailing around doing all sorts of nutty antics to get their ferments going. Or they stress their yeast in multiple ways (too hot, too high ABV, no aeration, poor nutrients makeup) and then complain about funky flavors.

There's nothing cleaner, healthier (yeast health) and faster than a 7% AG ferment at the low end of the yeast temp range (68F for the ale yeasts I use). The point of this post. Not to debate the validity of a crazy ass exception to the rule, for beer
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Odin wrote:10 to 12% on an All Grain malted barley? Okay, I am trying to wrap my head around this ... how much kilo's of ground malted barley would one need per 20 liters of water? 1 kilo per 3 liters?

Odin.
haha, a lot. 12% in a 5 gallon wash is 20+ lbs of malt. Its ridiculous.

Sea bass, if you're suggesting to folk to push 10-12% on their AG's STOP. Its bad advice and against everything I'm trying to do with this post for the new folks around here.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

There is something to be said for "to each his own"
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

The post was intended as advice to the new folks who arent sure what they're doing to help them have successful runs.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

Absolutely, agreed.
I think too high a ferment temp is pushed here, even by the experienced. It's all a matter of personal preference but you are absolutely right. Prior to gaining the knowledge/ability to pull it off, high gravity stuff shouldn't be recommended.
Although I would imagine most of us has tried it.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by seabass »

jimdo64 wrote:
Odin wrote:10 to 12% on an All Grain malted barley? Okay, I am trying to wrap my head around this ... how much kilo's of ground malted barley would one need per 20 liters of water? 1 kilo per 3 liters?

Odin.
haha, a lot. 12% in a 5 gallon wash is 20+ lbs of malt. Its ridiculous.

Sea bass, if you're suggesting to folk to push 10-12% on their AG's STOP. Its bad advice and against everything I'm trying to do with this post for the new folks around here.
I'm not necessarily suggesting, just stating that it is very possible and you can have good results if you know what you are doing. I routinely make beers in the 10% range that finish fermenting in 4 days at 62f. As many have said, it is preference. If you want to aim for 10% and are willing to make a starter and do what is required, it will be a good clean fermentation with the right yeast.

Having said that, if you don't do what is required, you'll have a bucket of crap on your hands that will still taste like crap after being run through the still.

My point is that telling people something is bad instead of telling people the proper way to do things is a bad idea. If someone is set on making a 10% wash and wants it to turn out good, it is very possible. 16lbs of grain will get you there with a 5 gal batch and an all barley wash and good mashing techniques.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

New folks have no business shooting for 10-12% on an AG. Its a damn bad idea. I tried to write a post to help the new folks be successful, thanks for undermining that.

Screw it, Il just delete the post and continue to help people when their conversion is low, their ferment stalls or takes forever or their FG is higher than it should be. Its great to hear about your mad mashing skills tho, 'easily' doing what takes brewers years to hone. And I call BS on a 4 day ferment of 10% at 62F. Thats colder than ale, distillers or bakers yeast like and warmer than lager yeast can deal with. Even at optimum temp a 10% will not ferment out in 4 days. I been brewing for 20 years, I know a thing or 2 about brewing also.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by seabass »

No need to get butthurt over it. Simply writing that high gravity is difficult and requires care and extra steps would suffice. We should all be about educating the community, not babying them. I'm not advocating aiming that high, just adding information about what is required to attain it. Above the 12% abv area you are entering crap flavored turbo yeast territory.

No need for deletion. But there is a need for open discussion. If your point is to prevent noobs from messing up batches, then informing them of the difficulty of making high gravity batches properly will achieve the same thing. :P
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by rad14701 »

Lower gravity washes/mashes are preferred for flavored spirits distilled using a pot still... The lower the %ABV of the wash, the more flavor that will carry over...

Higher gravity washes, up to 14% potential, are fine for reflux columns... Anything higher just adds more foreshots, heads, and tails, proportionately, and less good hearts, proportionately... However, keeping the potential %ABV in the 10% - 12% range can help novices get a grasp of things without undue complications...

I am currently having 14% washes ferment to dry in 48 hours using bakers yeast... I'm still experimenting so I'm not going to divulge my methods... I need to determine whether it is the speed of fermentation or the speed at which I am running the still that is causing what I consider to be a disproportionate amount of tails...
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Odin »

Curious Rad! Keep us posted! Using some 20/20/20 to speed things up? And/or higher temps? Okay, I will wait ...

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

jimdo64 wrote:And I call BS on a 4 day ferment of 10% at 62F. Thats colder than ale, distillers or bakers yeast like and warmer than lager yeast can deal with. Even at optimum temp a 10% will not ferment out in 4 days. I been brewing for 20 years, I know a thing or 2 about brewing also.
Have you never tried lager yeast at ale temps?. It can deal with the higher temps just fine and many a steam beer out there to prove it.
I think 4 days is doable to ferment, not to clear and be drinkable but ferment? Sure.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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Odin wrote:Curious Rad! Keep us posted! Using some 20/20/20 to speed things up? And/or higher temps? Okay, I will wait ...

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Rad, Seabass, you both are into honing what takes a while to perfect, pushing the boundaries so to speak. Very interesting for sure, but not a topic for noobs. I posted this in Novice distillers section, and here we are talking about special tricks for 2 days ferments, and barley wine level AG ABV's. Ugh. Foiled.

Seabass, stick around a while, you'll see why I stressed keeping it simple. There's a lot of new folks here who are grasping and dont have a handle on even the very basics. And their attempts are failing right left and center, especially when they do things out of the ordinary. Distillers make 7% washes for malt whiskey for a reason, they're fast clean and efficient.

But you are right and fair enough that I should have added another section on how 'properly' to do a higher ABV mash if thats your goal. Maybe Ill add it when I have more time, doing a run right now :P, It will be a long section, including how to do a thick mash, ph, hitting and holding mash temp on the nuts, minimal sparging and recovery of the balance for next run, aeration, proper yeast and temp etc. If nothing else hopefully it will keep them from just dumping 16 pounds of malt in 5 gallons and wondering why it didnt work. :crazy:

Belly, ya I make steam beers. They throw crazy esters but are good in their own right. Never saw a 10% one tho.

OK reading the latest comments seems there's a lot more interest from teh seasoned folk on doing the extraordinary than any new folks HAHAHA.. Ok fine. All topics fair game.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by blind drunk »

jimdo64 wrote:There seems to be a belief that ABV's need to be pushed as high as possible here in HD by the new folk. I see it all over, folks trying to push sugar heads into the high teens, or really frustrating for me as an AG brewer, folks adding sugar to an otherwise perfect All grain mash to get it up into the 8+ numbers! AHHH STOP! i dont know if its greed, or lack of understanding of AG mashes, or even for the sugar head folk lack of understanding what they're doing to the yeast and quality of their drink.

A successful all grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-7%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill, boiling down beer wort and other tricks, reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon makers are happy with a strong beer level of 6-7% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also (stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide,Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink).

This applies to the sugarhead folk too. Keep your ABV down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead guru's here can say whats reasonable, higher than 6-7 but not high teens), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and youre yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.
I think this is a very valuable post for the new folks (which was the original intention). Although all the discussion following the original post is also worthy, it would be nice just to keep it simple for the folks who stumble upon the hobby and for the first time mashers.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by rad14701 »

jimdo64, what we're dealing with here is a double-edged sword, so to speak... Novices want instant gratification... They don't want to wait... They want it all and they want it now...!!! And both you and I know you can't always have it that way... And that is why we use the 10% - 12% range for best results... Consider it a happy medium... Moving in one direction or another from there is up to each individual to learn on their own...

When we try to tell people that 10 gallons of 8% wash will only yield 2/3 of what 12% will they naturally want to go with 12%... And if they start out at 14% or higher and have less than stellar results they will generally only back down to 12%, and then to 10%... It's the nature of the beast... The human psyche is very predictable...

Toss into the equation that many here think that only a 15 gallon boiler will make decent spirits and we've compounded the problem... Realistically, a 4 gallon (16qt) boiler can be used effectively by a patient and attentive novice... But they will need a bit more potential %ABV to make their efforts worthwhile... Back to the double-edged sword concept again.... Round and round we go... :crazy:
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

yup, its a 'I want it now' world. Sadly.

Do you think 10-12% is ideal for AG malt mashes too??? Thats pretty hard to do. Altho it can be done of course. Its not even how the whiskey producers do it. For sugar heads or gerbers and such maybe. I recently distilled 3 different sugarhead fruit wines at 13% and they turned out great, but AG malt?
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by rad14701 »

jimdo64 wrote:yup, its a 'I want it now' world. Sadly.

Do you think 10-12% is ideal for AG malt mashes too??? Thats pretty hard to do. Altho it can be done of course. Its not even how the whiskey producers do it. For sugar heads or gerbers and such maybe. I recently distilled 3 different sugarhead fruit wines at 13% and they turned out great, but AG malt?
Nope... 6% - 8% for all grain...
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Thank you! I tried to distinguish that in the original post, but I guess it got lost in the clutter. these threads have a knack for going off into the weeds pretty quick :crazy:
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

you also have to remember the whiskey distillers have their process down to the last penny. If they are using 7% as their target mark its reason is a whole lot more than just a number. they crunch every last number to maximize profits. Home distillers tend to try and maximize time not profit. A higher ABV mash/wash is more efficient time wise... if you can pull it off and can find that happy place where ABV doesn't interfere with the end product with off flavours, that's where yeast choice and ferment temp come in to play.
As you have said we are now getting out of the novice arena and into the experience side and I agree. Although, even a novice with no AG experience with even a little bit of research can come up with sound methods and choices to pull it off. Those that can't will show up asking questions. We will never change that and numbers wise, that's what keeps forums going strong as frustrating as it may be.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

haha yes agreed Belly.

I usually shoot for 7-8, but I think my yield hits closer to 9 fermenting on the grain. I could probably shoot for 10 and hit 11 or 12 I suppose, but i like the results with good ale yeast, and thats pushing it before the yeast start complaining.

This thread turned into a good discussion. Cheers.
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