ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

:crazy: My brain is spinning trying to decipher one of them paragraphs, but is your point, its damn cheap to make this stuff at home, $1 more a liter, to make better quality, better tasting stuff is a no brainer? Not sure why its more expensive tho? Because of yeast cost?

Seems everybody would be interested in maxing out the quality of what they're spending hours making. Some folks are hell bent on quantity over quality tho I guess? To each his own. Lots of people need to learn stuff the hard way, and thats valid too. Tell somebody 14% throws phenols and they look at you like your stoned. Then they make a few batches and realize the 10% base tastes better. Or for AG, ya tell em to target 8, they shoot for 12 cause they want more, then struggle with slow ferments, stalled ferments, high FG. Eventually they do a simple batch at 7%, it finishes lickity split, below 1.000 with no issues, clean and tastes great. Maybe its important for the noobs to make the mistakes hell I dunno. I read a couple books and then made shitloads of mistakes years ago. Never knew this site existed, woulda saved a lot of headaches.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Doogie »

jimdo64 wrote::crazy: My brain is spinning trying to decipher one of them paragraphs, but is your point, its damn cheap to make this stuff at home, $1 more a liter, to make better quality, better tasting stuff is a no brainer? Not sure why its more expensive tho? Because of yeast cost?
Exactly - the cost differential on the yeast is high with those turbos - I have to pay 5.99 for Liq. Quick Batch Turbo - and I need 2 packages ($11.98 + tax) for the 50L batch I make, or I can get 2 jars of dry active for $4.09 each ($8.18 - dunno if it is a taxable item) - so the reduction in quantity from turbo to bakers is partly offset in the cost reduction in the yeast.

never mind the whole "I can drink it right away" part the lower ABV tends to allow ... :)
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Gaztops »

I make my washes at 10% abv because when I tried making a wash that was 13% abv and it stalled at 1.010, where as the other wash at 10% abv fermented dry at 0.992 and the difference beteewn the two in tasting after distillation was quite different and didn't gain any extra in quantity because it made my cuts smaller according to my taste.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by ajshomebrew »

Jimdo64, I for one appreciate the complete discussion of this post and learned a lot in the debate. In the beginning of the thread I thought you were talking about final product abv, In the end I realize the purpose was for all grain types and other washes it is OK to be under 10%. I, for one and a lot of other newbies probably think to push it high was the right thing to do. Now I KNOW it is OK and probably PREFERABLE / and OK to prepare a wash at around 8% or so. Perhaps, even though I like my sweet feed whiskey as is, now I can try to make it BETTER. I will admit I tried a TURBO ONCE and didn't like what I got.....Bottom Line is please DO NOT QUIT POSTING YOUR KNOWLEDGE !!! I think the thing that bothers me most personally is the push for the highest end product proof / abv and the newbies who think that is the ultimate goal. I even find myself browsing the various sites and thinking " should I shell out the $400 plus to get a 180 proof end product " and what would I do with it ? You and this post have helped me realize my simple 5 gal pot still home made is just fine and the whiskey I produce is what I really enjoy the most. As another post said " TO EACH THEIR OWN" ....Thank you for creating the discussion and thanks to all who posted good or bad. It all contained information to learn from. Even for a CONFUSED NEWBIE, If they READ enough, ya eventually figure it out for yourself with enough research.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dan P. »

Jimdo, your sentiment is worthy and appreciated, but as Rad has pointed out, you are pissing into the wind.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

haha, well, pissing into the wind does give a warm feeling all over :shock:

aj, thanks, this site is a knowledge bank. As a whole, the discussion here with the masters chiming in, and some new folk sharing their experiences I hope was useful to somebody.

I reiterate on HD as often as I can that making an all grain mash is not complicated. It can be simplified to a few pretty basic steps, and you'll have great success out of the gate. From there, there's a million directions you can go off to exepriment with, whether its higher gravities, faster ferments, playing with yeasts/temps/nutrients, step infusion mashes with protein rests etc etc. I firmly believe tho that everyone should first learn the fundamentals in the most ideal conditions. Whiskey distillers make 7-8% washes all day every day because they work, they ferment out fast and clean and the mash is manageable and gives good efficient conversion at 2 lbs per gallon or so. For sugarheads Rad is a guru and says "10-12 range for best results".

The more we reiterate that, hopefully the greater chance some of the piss misses us out in the wind? I suppose at that point a branch will snap off in the wind and take your pecker off while your standing there exposed?
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by CuWhistle »

What a difference a day makes! While you guys have been thrashing each other with specified double digit percentages of AG and how to mash the shit out of anything that once grew, I was out fishing or asleep. I've just read through all posts over the last day or so and here's my opinion, as a novice, for what it's worth.

I agree with the intention, title, placement and content of the OP. There should have been no confusion as to the idea behind jimdo64's post. He could've made the topic an essay in it's own right, but after reading as far as the second paragraph the intention was pretty clear. AG washes will produce a better tasting product if you don't try to stretch them like a Tokyo Shock Boy's foreskin.

As a noob, I made the usual rookie mistakes after listening to an expert I chatted with on the horse paddock. As a distiller, he was a really good fencer. I used turbo48 with the recommended bucket of Cane Sugar and let it go for over a week to produce some absolute crap. I had fun and learnt something and I haven't wasted another cent on Turbo since.

It has become very apparent to me that it is best to not push things past the "Normal" envelope in the early stages of this practice. At this point I rarely even bother taking readings of Start and Finish gravities and calculating percentages to the nth decimal place. Just follow the recipe, leave it alone and run it.

I will next be attempting some AG after having a little (and successful) play with malt extract partials that probably only went to about 7.5%.

@jimdo64:- I'm a novice and I will follow your advice and thank you for it. As for even trying to go over 10%, I doubt I'll ever bother. I might try some stepped mash techniques with 2 or 3 arrests but most likely just simple mashing because I'm lazy. As has already been pointed out here (and in another thread recently), this is the NOVICE DISTILLERS area of the forum, where experienced practitioners can provide skill level appropriate advice to beginners.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Prairiepiss »

this is the NOVICE DISTILLERS area of the forum, where experienced practitioners can provide skill level appropriate advice to beginners.
:clap: :clap: :clap:

And here is a good section for more advanced techniques.

Mashing and Fermenting
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
Or any of the rest of the subsections in the section.
Mashes, Washes, Fermentation, Aging
http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=30
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Halfbaked »

NOOOOBS agree you can't delete nuttn. Keep the good stuff coming and thanks for trying to show us the right way to do it. Appreciate your contribution. Thanks again buddy.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Tater »

I look at fermenting/stilling as an adventure.If I'm after all fruit/or grain I ferment it out and am am happy :lol: with whatever proof it ferments out to. When doing sugar added or sugar washed I shoot for 10 proof and am again tickled :ebiggrin: with what ever results it ferments out to .Ill still it however many time it takes to get proof I want using thumper to add taste or add second distillation.I like distillers and bread yeast in warmer weather and ec1118 when it cooler.I know to some the fun is doing everything by numbers.But me I prefer the adventure.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Agree 100% Tater. For the seasoned folk. the adventure is what keeps us interested (I really dont consider myself seasoned, so much to learn yet). But only after understanding whats going on. This post was written for the new folk, to help them be successful while they're learnin. I dont think you're advocating they adhoc away and learn the hard way, through learnin from their failures, but there is definitely some credence in that if thats what you mean. I definetely learned a few lessons the hard way.

As far as adventure, my latest beer Im gonna call 'Czech out my Ale' Its an English ale style with a shit load of Saaz hops. I think the beer brewers here might appreciate that. :)

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

Mmmmmmmm SAAZ
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Right! Holy shit florally hoppy goodness. Crazy how good them hops are. Pilsner Urquell when you first pop the top and take that first drink. Heaven.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Truckinbutch »

halfbaked wrote:NOOOOBS agree you can't delete nuttn. Keep the good stuff coming and thanks for trying to show us the right way to do it. Appreciate your contribution. Thanks again buddy.
I agree . For me , failure is not an option in any endeavor . Your posts are helping me avoid mistakes . Please continue .
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Uncle Jemima »

blind drunk wrote:
jimdo64 wrote:There seems to be a belief that ABV's need to be pushed as high as possible here in HD by the new folk. I see it all over, folks trying to push sugar heads into the high teens, or really frustrating for me as an AG brewer, folks adding sugar to an otherwise perfect All grain mash to get it up into the 8+ numbers! AHHH STOP! i dont know if its greed, or lack of understanding of AG mashes, or even for the sugar head folk lack of understanding what they're doing to the yeast and quality of their drink.

A successful all grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-7%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill, boiling down beer wort and other tricks, reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon makers are happy with a strong beer level of 6-7% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also (stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide,Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink).

This applies to the sugarhead folk too. Keep your ABV down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead guru's here can say whats reasonable, higher than 6-7 but not high teens), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and youre yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.
I think this is a very valuable post for the new folks (which was the original intention). Although all the discussion following the original post is also worthy, it would be nice just to keep it simple for the folks who stumble upon the hobby and for the first time mashers.
As a Newby I definitely appreciate the post Jim. Honestly, I thought I was doing something wrong with my AGs early on as I'm usually closer to 7% and for some reason thought I should expect 9-11% range. Also enjoy the other more advanced stuff too. Even if it's beyond my skill level. It's still interesting info and I feel a little more informed about the hobby having read it.

Excellent thread. Now I need to finish reading the rest of it.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by BrooklynTech »

Odin wrote:10 to 12% on an All Grain malted barley? Okay, I am trying to wrap my head around this ... how much kilo's of ground malted barley would one need per 20 liters of water? 1 kilo per 3 liters?

Odin.
Being a "dumb" American I don't know kilos from liters. LOL

I used 14 lbs of Pilsner mashing each in about 3 gallons of water. One pack of dry yeast, total cost was about $40 w/out tax. Distilled 4.25 gallons at 9.3% or so and have about 50 oz to dilute. Havent mixed them yet. Sure smells good in the room they are airing. This will sit on oak chips and should last me at least a year. Yea I don't drink much. Maybe a shot a night.

Very interesting discussion. Perhaps next year I'll shoot for 7 or 8 % and see if there is a difference.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by BrooklynTech »

Beerbrewer wrote:I've been an all grain brewer for some 12 odd years and I find it very difficult to get a beer of 10-12%abv just with all grain, for one thing I use sugar in anything over 6-7% to dillute the nitrogen content.

The only way I have got beers above 8%abv is with adding sugar and even then I use a second generation yeast which takes a few weeks to do it's job and usually throws off a fair few phenols.

You may be able to get a high alcohol yield using parti gyle techniques but I've never done this, always seemed to wasteful for me.
Not to steal the thread, but it's not that hard to get a 8 or 9 ABV beer. I'm into small batch BIAB (brew in a bag) and have no trouble getting up there. I don't sparge but I do squeeze the hell out of my grain bag. Perhaps the smaller batches are easier to get every last drop of sugar out of the mash. I use dry yeast and ferment in the low 60s in a temp controlled freezer.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dnderhead »

" I don't sparge but I do squeeze the hell out of my grain bag"
NADA ..sparg,, then use this water in the next mash,,
say you make 8% beer,,with out adding the sparg water.now you use this sparg water to make the next mash,,,so if the sparg water is 2%.and you use it to make another 8% mash instead of 8% you now have 10%.
if you want use more water to sparg with, your adding to the next mash instead of diluting the one your making.this can keep creeping up each time. also if the wort has not been boiled it still has some enzymes.so you have added them also.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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BrooklynTech wrote:
I used 14 lbs of Pilsner mashing each in about 3 gallons of water. One pack of dry yeast, total cost was about $40 w/out tax. Distilled 4.25 gallons at 9.3% or so and have about 50 oz to dilute. Havent mixed them yet. Sure smells good in the room they are airing. This will sit on oak chips and should last me at least a year. Yea I don't drink much. Maybe a shot a night.

Very interesting discussion. Perhaps next year I'll shoot for 7 or 8 % and see if there is a difference.
Not sure how you distilled 4.25 gallons with 3 gallons of mash water? 14 lbs in 3 gal is an uber thick mash, and should get you 17% at 75% conversion efficiency. Are you sure those qtys are right? A typical mash is 2 lbs per gallon, youre at almost 5. 50 oz of what proof yield?

Your mash was too thick and your efficiency suffered, so your yield was low., but honestly at this point if youre doing it once a year and you got it to work, great. I think Taters comment comes in here and just enjoy the adventure. But I definitely dont recommend that process as general mashing guidance.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by BrooklynTech »

jimdo64 wrote:
BrooklynTech wrote:
I used 14 lbs of Pilsner mashing each in about 3 gallons of water. One pack of dry yeast, total cost was about $40 w/out tax. Distilled 4.25 gallons at 9.3% or so and have about 50 oz to dilute. Havent mixed them yet. Sure smells good in the room they are airing. This will sit on oak chips and should last me at least a year. Yea I don't drink much. Maybe a shot a night.

Very interesting discussion. Perhaps next year I'll shoot for 7 or 8 % and see if there is a difference.
Not sure how you distilled 4.25 gallons with 3 gallons of mash water? 14 lbs in 3 gal is an uber thick mash, and should get you 17% at 75% conversion efficiency. Are you sure those qtys are right? A typical mash is 2 lbs per gallon, youre at almost 5. 50 oz of what proof yield?

Your mash was too thick and your efficiency suffered, so your yield was low., but honestly at this point if youre doing it once a year and you got it to work, great. I think Taters comment comes in here and just enjoy the adventure. But I definitely dont recommend that process as general mashing guidance.
Sorry Jim, something didn't come across. Because I only do "small" beers, what I did for the whiskey was two mashes each w/7 lbs of Pilsner. Each mash used approx 3 gallons of water. I then combined the two mashes for the ferment. My 50 oz are spread out between 78% and 40 % in 4 oz each. I collect in the test tube w/the alcohol meter in it and when if floats I switch to the next jar. Gonna combine and dilute tomorrow then put on oak.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by BrooklynTech »

Dnderhead wrote:" I don't sparge but I do squeeze the hell out of my grain bag"
NADA ..sparg,, then use this water in the next mash,,
say you make 8% beer,,with out adding the sparg water.now you use this sparg water to make the next mash,,,so if the sparg water is 2%.and you use it to make another 8% mash instead of 8% you now have 10%.
if you want use more water to sparg with, your adding to the next mash instead of diluting the one your making.this can keep creeping up each time. also if the wort has not been boiled it still has some enzymes.so you have added them also.
Interesting idea, but I make many different ales before repeating. Your method might mix flavors and not get what I want. And than I'd have to save the sparge water someplace. Still a good idea. Thanks
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

BrooklynTech wrote:
jimdo64 wrote:
BrooklynTech wrote:
I used 14 lbs of Pilsner mashing each in about 3 gallons of water. One pack of dry yeast, total cost was about $40 w/out tax. Distilled 4.25 gallons at 9.3% or so and have about 50 oz to dilute. Havent mixed them yet. Sure smells good in the room they are airing. This will sit on oak chips and should last me at least a year. Yea I don't drink much. Maybe a shot a night.

Very interesting discussion. Perhaps next year I'll shoot for 7 or 8 % and see if there is a difference.
Not sure how you distilled 4.25 gallons with 3 gallons of mash water? 14 lbs in 3 gal is an uber thick mash, and should get you 17% at 75% conversion efficiency. Are you sure those qtys are right? A typical mash is 2 lbs per gallon, youre at almost 5. 50 oz of what proof yield?

Your mash was too thick and your efficiency suffered, so your yield was low., but honestly at this point if youre doing it once a year and you got it to work, great. I think Taters comment comes in here and just enjoy the adventure. But I definitely dont recommend that process as general mashing guidance.
Sorry Jim, something didn't come across. Because I only do "small" beers, what I did for the whiskey was two mashes each w/7 lbs of Pilsner. Each mash used approx 3 gallons of water. I then combined the two mashes for the ferment. My 50 oz are spread out between 78% and 40 % in 4 oz each. I collect in the test tube w/the alcohol meter in it and when if floats I switch to the next jar. Gonna combine and dilute tomorrow then put on oak.
Oh ok yes 6 gallons makes a big differnce. In that case it looks like you did real well in the mash. 9.3% is a real good conversion. For 4.25 gallons of 9.3% the alcohol total is 53 oz of proof strength (100), you got more than half of that out, not bad as well. A couple things you could try if you wanted, you stopped at 40% so there was quite a bit of alcohol left you could have pulled out, and then you could put the whole batch in for a 2nd run. Another is, I ferment whiskey mashes on the grain. It brings over more flavor, you get better yield becuase the conversion continues during fermentation, and the grain is easier to squeeze out after fermentation. I lose about 7 oz per pound, that 98 oz in your case, and would have pushed your run up to 5.2 gallons. Just some ideas. Cheers.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Al Key »

jimdo64 wrote: or really frustrating for me as an AG brewer, folks adding sugar to an otherwise perfect All grain mash to get it up into the 8+ numbers! AHHH STOP! i dont know if its greed, or lack of understanding of AG mashes, or even for the sugar head folk lack of understanding what they're doing to the yeast and quality of their drink.
jimdo, I too prefer the taste of grain. Been researching recipes to eliminate the sugar wash method I've been using. Would you mind pointing me to one that you like or one that's not too complicated for this noob. I use a pot still/thumper. Thanks
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Sure here's my recipe http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p7069038 You can scale it down. Be careful with the strike water, the water you add to mash in. If its too hot it will denature the enzymes. There are calculators online for determining how much and how hot of water to use to hit your target (146-148). I hate to post it, hope Rad doenst come after me again, but pretty sure this calculator isint here in HD so here you go. http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

After you add the water, stir it up real well then insulate the hell out of it. Use a cooler, or wrap the pot in blankets etc. In a couple hours it will convert. Then be sure to drop it to the right temp for the yeast you use. 80 for bakers, 68 for ale yeasts like US-05 (what I use) The temp can be 10 hotter than that when you pitch, if the room is cooler it will keep dropping.

Cheers.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Al Key »

jimdo64 wrote:Sure here's my recipe http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 6#p7069038 You can scale it down. Be careful with the strike water, the water you add to mash in. If its too hot it will denature the enzymes. There are calculators online for determining how much and how hot of water to use to hit your target (146-148). I hate to post it, hope Rad doenst come after me again, but pretty sure this calculator isint here in HD so here you go. http://www.brewersfriend.com/mash/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

After you add the water, stir it up real well then insulate the hell out of it. Use a cooler, or wrap the pot in blankets etc. In a couple hours it will convert. Then be sure to drop it to the right temp for the yeast you use. 80 for bakers, 68 for ale yeasts like US-05 (what I use) The temp can be 10 hotter than that when you pitch, if the room is cooler it will keep dropping.

Cheers.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by mealstrom »

This is a good thread that seems to have jumped the rails a few times because of hurt feelings. Jimbo, you have some great info and I'm really glad you posted it since I'm getting ready to try out some different barley runs myself. But don't get so hung up on people disagreeing with you. Some of the stuff Seabass posted answered questions I had, and two people DISCUSSING a topic gives a lot of useful information.

This forum seems to treat anyone new or any noobs as wild and crazy 19 year old kids who are just pissing their pants to do their first run. I have no doubt you run into a lot of that, but there are a lot of us who are intelligent, educated, mature, older people who just recently discovered the hobby. We often like to experiment instead of just putting together a "kit". We like to know WHY we should do something instead of not doing it. We like to see the discussion that occurs when two people disagree so we can figure out where they're both coming from. We also tend to get impatient and turned off with people being angry, insulting, or condescending right from the get-go (not that you have at all).

All I'm saying is that you have a great discussion here and I'm glad you started it. I'm also glad there's some disagreement. I learn MUCH more from these discussions than I do from the single-post, no discussion threads (as good as they are). They give me a deeper, fuller understanding of the subject, which is what this forum is supposed to be about.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Thanks for the feedback mealstrom. Youre right, open discussions flush out lots of great info, agreed.

I see so many folks making simple mistakes that are so easy to fix with some basic advice, that was my intent. I didnt expect it to turn into a debate on the validity of all the 'exceptions' To be told Im wrong, and then given a barley wine level mash as an example, set me off, its completely contrary to my intent in this novice post and complicates an otherwise simple task of getting a first AG wash off the ground. Character flaw on my part, could have handled that better. But to be fair, he didnt list all the caveots and cautions to doing it that way either, so just as guilty as what he's accusing me of (partial information). Whatever. Let the debates fly. Most people are smart enough to read it all and learn. If they keep making mistakes they're just not reading.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Black Eye »

jimdo64 wrote:If they keep making mistakes they're just not reading.
Well said. Thanks for all the input
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by seabass »

jimdo64 wrote:But to be fair, he didnt list all the caveots and cautions to doing it that way either, so just as guilty as what he's accusing me of (partial information). Whatever. Let the debates fly. Most people are smart enough to read it all and learn. If they keep making mistakes they're just not reading.
Fair point. :thumbup:

If people want a detailed writeup on making high gravity AG mashes, I'd be happy to do that. But again, I'm not encouraging it, just saying that there are extra steps required for good results. And as you said, there is a reason that the pros stick to 6-7% for AG whiskey. But if someone wanted to experiment with high gravity AG washes for vodka or some other project, I'd encourage them to experiment, but do it right so they aren't wasting money and effort.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Prairiepiss »

Again if they want to experiment with high gravity ferments. They shouldn't be reading in this section. They should already have a good bit of experience with low gravity ferments. And be researching advanced techniques. It would be like reading a grade school text book to learn algebra.

I'm not saying I don't thing others shouldn't experiment. Just saying they should be researching info in the right place.

Yes there will always be exceptions that will learn from stuff like this. But how many have you seen that can't figure out why a wash stalled or failed. Because they started with to high of an SG. And don't even really know what SG is. And how to use it proper. Let alone understand how to measure it. What may be simple to you doesn't mean it is for everyone.

While I was in the Air Force I would get newbs straight out of a 8 month tech school on how to repair aircraft. And I would have to teach them how to use a wrench. Or what a ratchet and socket was. I even had one that used common screw drivers on Philips screws. He didn't know what a Philips screw driver was. By the way they had a two week course on basic hand tools. It took me a long time to understand why. And I still forget why a lot. Some people just don't get certain things easily. But they may understand other things very easily. And its the ones that don't get it easily you need to cater too the most. All the others can breeze through it and move to the next step. But those that don't get it may take a bit longer for the light bulb to come on. And throwing to much at them can hamper their learning abilities. So what if the more advanced person has to read through more stuff to find what they need to know. It's the ones that have a hard time that need the most help. And that is what these sections are about.

Not trying to offend anyone. We all have our problem areas. I have my fair share.
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