ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Prairiepiss wrote:
While I was in the Air Force I would get newbs straight out of a 8 month tech school on how to repair aircraft.
:thumbup: :thumbup: No shit huh Piss, sounds like we were the same IOS. I was a crew chief on tankers in the USAF many moons ago.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Angel_Kefka »

I worked avionics oncargo planes. thought the basic tool class was nuts until I realized that about a third of the people need it.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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Electrical Environmental on C-130s. We were all crew chiefs.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

Prairiepiss wrote: And don't even really know what SG is. And how to use it proper. Let alone understand how to measure it. What may be simple to you doesn't mean it is for everyone.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by GuyFawkes »

Wow..... what a good post that got seriously mistook by a few (although it did end up being for the better as the derailment was entertaining and informative)

Here's the way I see it, it's like telling someone just driving for the first time not to drive on the highway. Do you think they're reading that as driving on the highway can't be done? Hopefully not, and if they are I question whether their driving test was legitimate..... But, all it's saying is that they should start out at lower speeds and as they gain familiarity with their equipment, the processes, the terminology, etc they can step and do whatever they want, but that starting out at those lower speeds will yield better results in the beginning.

All the same to those starting out, fermenting to higher abv can most certainly be done, and it may not even be exceptionally difficult, however they will have better results at the start if they keep the abv to the "recommended" levels.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

One more comment/thought. Seen a lot of folks targeting a wash ABV based on what the yeast packet tells them "alcohol tolerant to 18%" or 22 % or whatever. That does not mean that is the ideal ABV you should target for. Its actually the absolute worst case ABV the yeast MIGHT tolerate if everything else in your wash was perfect, temp, nutrients etc. before they just throw in the towel and say screw it and die on you. Note the yeast will puke all sorts of nasties before they're stressed enough to die. For AG's most ale yeasts specify an alcohol tolerance of 10-11% or so. You wanna stay well under that number unless your after esters and phenols and all the other crap I listed in the op. I dont know what bakers can tolerate before it gets funky, does anybody know here?
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by rad14701 »

jimdo64 wrote:I dont know what bakers can tolerate before it gets funky, does anybody know here?
I have accidentally pushed bakers yeast to ~19% without issues with a very clean wash and the resulting spirits had no bad smell or taste... I consider myself lucky and would never intentionally aim for such a high gravity wash... At the highest recommended potential of 14% you can either result in a clean wash or an off wash, depending on what all is in the recipe and how hot it gets during fermentation...
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by GuyFawkes »

I think those numbers are, to some degree, not entirely applicable as maximum. I think if you use the right nutrients, the right care, in the right situation, you can push the yeast well beyond even what they say on the packet. I'm not saying you should, or that it will have good results, just the manufacturer is trying to tell you something and you should listen.

If a car redlines at 9000 rpm, is that where you want to shift? Just sayin. Got a lot of car metaphors for some reason..... :crazy:
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by blind drunk »

I've always wondered what a 3-4% distilled wort would taste like.

ed to add - also wonder if cuts would be necessary, except the fores, of coarse.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Prairiepiss »

Make the yeasties happy. And they will fart CO2 and piss good alcohol.
Make the yeasties unhappy. And they will just shit in your drink.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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blind drunk wrote:I've always wondered what a 3-4% distilled wort would taste like.

ed to add - also wonder if cuts would be necessary, except the fores, of coarse.
I did one last week at 4%. It was a 6 lbs of malt extract a friend gave me, mixed in water and poured over 25 lbs of squeezed out grains from an all barley run I just finished. It came out great. The cuts came out roughly the same as my typical 7-8ish% AG runs. Them tails always get funky cardboardy oily cloudy eventually (in that order hahaha)

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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by GuyFawkes »

jimdo64 wrote:The cuts came out roughly the same as my typical 7-8ish% AG runs
I think that's the key to perhaps this whole thread. When you push the limits of the yeast, you are ultimately going to end up with about the same amount of really drinkable distillate. So why waste the yeast/grains/sugar/etc? Why do one 12% run that yields the same as one 6% run..... but you could do two 6% runs with the same materials! To me, if you want to increase the volume of final product, you increase the volume of wash, NOT abv.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dan P. »

GuyFawkes wrote:
jimdo64 wrote:The cuts came out roughly the same as my typical 7-8ish% AG runs
I think that's the key to perhaps this whole thread. When you push the limits of the yeast, you are ultimately going to end up with about the same amount of really drinkable distillate. So why waste the yeast/grains/sugar/etc? Why do one 12% run that yields the same as one 6% run..... but you could do two 6% runs with the same materials! To me, if you want to increase the volume of final product, you increase the volume of wash, NOT abv.
I don't believe you are correct. If you run two identical washes, except that one is 6% and the other is 12%, the latter will yield more alcohol. Your ability to successfully ferment it, to rectify it and what cuts you make are obviously another matter, but the basic premise of your post I believe is quite incorrect.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Dan, I think Guy is just summarizing what several others said below, including some of the mentors. When they pushed the ABV, there were higher amount of heads and tails. Which makes sense, since stressed yeast puke nasties. Is the 'keep' yield of a 12% AG wash the same as 6%? Prolly not, Im sure it higher, but its not 2 X 6% yield. I believe that was the essence of Guys statement, which I believe is correct.

Guy, I might not have been clear, when I said the 4% cuts were the same as my usuall 7-8% cuts, I meant percentage wise. In other words, I didnt see much difference between 4 and 7 in the character of the distillate, except of course I got more at 7 (Dans point). You are still correct tho when pushed to the yeasts limit, first paragraph above. At 7-8% they are still happy. I do think that 8% mark, for ale yeasts, is about when they start getting a little tipsy and slurring. haha. IMO.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dan P. »

No, Jimdo, Guy's post is wrong. To say that you will get the same amount of useable alcohol from a 6% wash as from a 12% is nonsense. There are so many variables which need to be taken into account that it can only be nonsense. For instance, how you make your cuts; it's a matter of taste! Or what yeast you use, or your wash recipe.
Now, what you take as drinkable product might not be quite double, but the volume you need to process will be half. So, there's a lot of things to take into account.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by CuWhistle »

@ Dan P:- The reverse could also be true and this all very much depends on your own understanding of "usable alcohol".

By the argument being used here in the OP, if you push a yeast hard and stress it out in a high % wash, creating bad flavours, you may actually end up with a lesser quantity of "drinkable product" from a higher ABV wash, as is definitely illustrated in the case with Turbo. Hence the need for polishing of these higher ABV wash distillates.

Your position is 100% correct if you are considering volume of liquid and proofs alone, but I think you'd agree that this is not about those factors, (well for most of us anyhow).
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by GuyFawkes »

Dan P. wrote:No, Jimdo, Guy's post is wrong. To say that you will get the same amount of useable alcohol from a 6% wash as from a 12% is nonsense. There are so many variables which need to be taken into account that it can only be nonsense. For instance, how you make your cuts; it's a matter of taste! Or what yeast you use, or your wash recipe.
Now, what you take as drinkable product might not be quite double, but the volume you need to process will be half. So, there's a lot of things to take into account.
Well I guess I offended Tater with my last post so he felt the need to be my censor..... Thanks! :roll: admin edit Nope didn't offend me just didn't see any reason for you to break rule 2 :thumbdown: :thumbdown: .Like I said play nice .tks for your cooperation.

Anyway, you are clearly misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not sure whether it's worth explaining to you or not what I mean, as I kind of have the feeling you aren't going to get it. All I can say is most of the experienced distillers who have chimed in have basically agreed that when you push abv, all you are doing is adding bad/off flavors into the picture. If your only mission is to create the most alcohol at the highest abv, then use turbo, crank out 20% washes and enjoy your rocket fuel-flavored beverage.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Doogie »

@Guy, even this novice gets it ... when I am producing at such low cost for the final product, 7 litres, 9 litres, 10 litres - it is all irrelevant to me. I am not selling it, I am drinking it and building a GOOD stash. At a production time of 7 litres of reasonably good stuff every week and a half, I really would rather have 7 great litres than 10 shitty litres.

Yes, it depends on what you translate good as. Some people love baby duck and smirnoff - personally if given it I return it and trade it for something better.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Doog, what the hell are you doing in that profile picture? :wtf: Looks like a turkish device in front of you.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

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jimdo64 wrote:Doog, what the hell are you doing in that profile picture? :wtf: Looks like a turkish device in front of you.
LOL - it is one of those guys from the Moonshiners TV show ... I think he cranked his ABV with a 24hr turbo wash and that was the shot when he tried it and spit the horrid tasting stuff out

Well, dunno if he turbo'd it ... but he said it was garbage
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dan P. »

GuyFawkes wrote:
Anyway, you are clearly misunderstanding what I am saying. I'm not sure whether it's worth explaining to you or not what I mean, as I kind of have the feeling you aren't going to get it.
Well, I don't know if we need to make this personal or anything, Guy, but if what you mean and what you write in your posts are two different things then I can't really be held responsible for not "getting it".

Anyway, there are two basic problems being addressed in this thread; High %abv being difficult to ferment out, and high %abv producing bad tastes. The former problem is largely an economy/efficiency issue, the latter a matter of taste. Luckily, with experience and a bit of learning, these problems will soon be understood and overcome. Or, there are some who will go on making the same nasty shit for ever. Maybe because they are stupid, or maybe because they think it tastes great?
As it is not a safety issue, however, I do not think we need to turn it into some kind of mantra, and definitely don't think we to turn it into a "not-strictly-true-but-true-for-you" stick to wave in the face of novices.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Dan P. »

jimdo64 wrote:Doog, what the hell are you doing in that profile picture? :wtf: Looks like a turkish device in front of you.
Is this a euphemism for "it looks like you are taking a bong rip?"
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Dan P. wrote:
jimdo64 wrote:Doog, what the hell are you doing in that profile picture? :wtf: Looks like a turkish device in front of you.
Is this a euphemism for "it looks like you are taking a bong rip?"
Yup.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Prairiepiss »

Let me try this again. I love it when a big long post gets dumped. :evil:

This thread keeps going around in circles. Some say start out slow and get your feet wet. While others say no you need to jump in with both feet.

Again you don't teach a baby to run before you teach it to crawl.

This thread is about helping new distillers crawl. It's not about keeping information from them. It's not about telling them this is the only way to do it. It's not about telling seasoned vets they are doing it wrong.

This thread is to give a new distiller a way to make something easy that will end up good. With out all the cornfusion. So they can crawl. Once they get that down. It's up to them to progress their knowledge.

If you are one of those people that want all the info up front. And can process that info. Great. Read it and move on. This thread really isn't for you. Do don't try to make it for you. Just be curious to those that can't process all the info at once. They need something simple to get them started.

Giving them something that will give them a good outcome. With minimal difficulty. Will make it less likely they will get discouraged. And maybe drop the hobby.

It pretty simple. Information is good. To much information can be bad. Just cause you can handle more info. Doesn't mean others can to.

This thread has at this point been ruined. For its intended purpose.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Jimbo »

Prairiepiss wrote: This thread is about helping new distillers crawl. It's not about keeping information from them. It's not about telling them this is the only way to do it. It's not about telling seasoned vets they are doing it wrong.

This thread is to give a new distiller a way to make something easy that will end up good. With out all the cornfusion. So they can crawl. Once they get that down. It's up to them to progress their knowledge.
:clap: Yes. Thank you P.
Prairiepiss wrote: This thread has at this point been ruined. For its intended purpose.
I dont think so P, several new folks have chimed in and clearly appreciate and understand the points being made. Ive also gotten several PM's stating same and appreciation for posting some sound basics. The discussion/debate is unavoidable on an open forum. If you say the sky is blue, there will always be someone who says, NO YOUR WRONG its more of an aquamarine, and someone else will say its gray when it rains, and a third knucklehead will say its black at night. I was hoping to avoid that by posting in the Novice section, but alas, no can.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by goblin »

what jimdo64 said.
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by WIski »

what jimdo64 said.
YUP....Me too..... Thanks PP, J64, ..... :clap:
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by bellybuster »

I think you may have been better off doing a writeup and submitting it to the distilling Gods for consideration as a sticky.
Most of us simply hit the "view new posts" button and really don't pay attention to what heading it comes under.

There really are many differing opinions on where to start. With beer brewing I wouldn't even suggest anyone start with malt extract, go all in and start right off with all grain. Even a poor all grain is better than a good extract beer. But, for the most part everyone recommends starting at the bottom. I think this is more out of "that's how I did it" than any sound knowledge
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by GuyFawkes »

There will always be those who feel they need to correct anything anyone ever says, because they're the smartest people who ever lived dammit.

I really liked this post and wish I had seen something like it when I was starting out. It's really frustrated and annoyed me how many people have taken exception to it and totally misinterpreted it. But as Mr. P said, that's the unfortunate reality of open discussion.....
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Re: ABV Does NOT need to be High!!!

Post by Prairiepiss »

There really are many differing opinions on where to start. With beer brewing I wouldn't even suggest anyone start with malt extract, go all in and start right off with all grain. Even a poor all grain is better than a good extract beer. But, for the most part everyone recommends starting at the bottom. I think this is more out of "that's how I did it" than any sound knowledge Research is the key ingredient in all of it. If you're not willing to do the research you'll never get very far
I couldn't disagree with this more.

Go big or go home is not always the answer.

Start where you feel comfortable starting.

Just because its what you would do. Does not mean its what everyone should do. Or that everyone can do it. And by having that attitude. You are leaving a lot of people out that could enjoy the hobby. But are intimidated or don't understand all grain brewing as easily as you have.

Kinda like telling a doctor he should do open heart surgery before he does anything else.

Or a new diver to go open water on their first dive.

Maybe a pilot should fly a jumbo transport before anything else?

It just seams to me people think what's best for them is always best for everyone. Not taking into account what the other persons abilities are.

I would never tell anyone go all grain or don't do it. I have gotten two friends into beer brewing. Both started with extracts. Both have really enjoyed it. Neither of them would have got into the hobby if they had to start with all grain. One of them is ready to make the jump to all grain. While the other is happy doing malt extracts. And will probably never go all grain. So if I had told them go AG or don't do it. That would be two less people enjoying a great hobby. And a hobby can only improve with more people doing it. More people opens up the market for better equipment and ingredient choices. Look at how much all three of these hobbies have grown over the last 10 years. Wine, beer, and spirits. The options are growing every day. The equipment available to home distillers has grown tremendously over the last 5 years. That wouldn't of happened if there wasn't anyone to buy it.

That's just my two nickles.
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