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There seems to be a belief by some new distillers here that wash gravities (ABV) need to be pushed as high as possible. I see it all over, folks trying to push sugar heads into the high teens, or really frustrating for me as an AG brewer, folks adding sugar to an otherwise perfect All Grain mash to get it up into the double digit numbers because they think its too low at 6-8%. AHHH STOP! I dont know if its greed for more hooch, lack of understanding of AG mashes, taking literally the max alcohol tolerance on yeast packets, or even for the sugar head folk just lack of understanding what they're doing to the yeast and quality of their drink when they ask the yeast to produce such high alcohol.

A successful All Grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-8%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill and tricks usually reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon producers target 6-8% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also. Stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide, Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, polyphenols, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink.

This applies to the sugarhead folk too. Keep your sugar based washes down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead mentors here in HD state 10-12% maximum), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and your yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.

Thats great advice, I just ran about 40L of wash from my first allgrain and was really worried about my low abv. Stripped and spirit run and I ended up with about 3.3L of finished spirit when its proofed down to40abv. Its not much yield but it is still less than a 1/3 of the cost of commercial. I was really conservative with my cuts, but jeez it tastes pretty good strait away. It's on some spirals at 55abv for a couple of months then proof down and see how it goes

Mash tuns made for making small batches and 1:1 sized fermenters with small boilers are a big part of the problem as I see it.
People are trying to squeeze more alcohol out of their undersized gear. I think there are a lot of brewers that migrate to distilling and bring along their gear which made them a decent amount of beer, but is grossly inadequate for making Whiskey. Sometimes its hard to let go...

I have an 8 gallon boiler, but I don't use an 8 gallon fermenter unless I've been gifted some exotic ingredient that I can make some small one-off product with. Trying to make anything decent to fill the cabinet would drive me insane at that size.

+1

I do back to back 8G ferments and use a 5G pot on a turkey burner that has a max charge of 4.5G’s. I normally wind up doing 4 strips to yield 4G of low wines.

My spirit charge is the low wines, reserved wash/wort, and feints from the previous run to get me a full boiler at 25-30% abv.

Yes, it is a lot of work and that work would be greatly minimized by upgrading to larger equipment, I agree. But I’m retired and have a nice private outdoor kitchen where all the magic happens so I don’t mind the extra hoops to jump through.

The small set up I have keeps me honest at the hobby level and definitely provides me and a few others with plenty of spirits to compare notes on. It also lets me try lots of small trial recipes that I tweak until I dial in on my signature process.

So yea, 6-8% max abv ferments and a couple of mash tuns that are double the size of your boiler will make for a good set up.

8Ball wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 5:44 am ...6-8% max abv ferments and a couple of mash tuns that are double the size of your boiler will make for a good set up.

That would depend on the size of your boiler. Also I ferment in my boiler so that is not possible. Not everyone's process is the same and making generalizations that fit yours may not fit everyone's.

i recently changed my process, i do 2x 20kg maize meal in 80lt water a week appart. i filter and press into a clarifying tank. when i have time i do a 45lt strip run. i combine the strip into mash from the clarifying tank for a 65lt charge on my 5 plater flute. i get almost double the hearts as from a 65lt straight mash run. yes it took some hard earned time, but now i am ahead on product (16Lt at 60%) and i have another 120lt at 8-9% mash to process soon. as soon as i have both mashes in the clarifying tank i start a new mash.

Jimbo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:07 pm This applies to the sugarhead folk too. Keep your sugar based washes down to reasonable numbers (sugarhead mentors here in HD state 10-12% maximum), use a good yeast (not Turbo) and your yeast will be happy, unstressed and produce a much better drink.

Some months back I did some sugar wash experiments for 8 - 9%, 10 - 11%, 12 - 13% and 14 - 15% abv of the finished wash.. and the abv levels were done at two different fermenting temp, one batch fermented at 70 - 82*F and one fermented at 85 - 90*F, and one batch of step addition fermented at 80*F, all done using RS yeast and finished dry in 4 days.. enough low wine was produce to give a spirit run of 7 gal at 38% abv for each categories..

The outcome of these experiment, the finished product, stripped and then refluxed all in the same manner, was that the 8 - 9% was not well like.. the best was the 10 - 11%, with the 80*F fermented one just a little better than the 85*F one.. overall the higher one were all good finished product also.. and there was no noticeable difference between step addition and the full sugar at start.. the only noticeable different between the step and full was the ferments were done in 3 days..

Mars

Butch27 wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 7:53 am

8Ball wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 5:44 am ...6-8% max abv ferments and a couple of mash tuns that are double the size of your boiler will make for a good set up.

That would depend on the size of your boiler. Also I ferment in my boiler so that is not possible. Not everyone's process is the same and making generalizations that fit yours may not fit everyone's.

Having a rough day?

8Ball wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 10:21 am

Butch27 wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 7:53 am

8Ball wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 5:44 am ...6-8% max abv ferments and a couple of mash tuns that are double the size of your boiler will make for a good set up.

That would depend on the size of your boiler. Also I ferment in my boiler so that is not possible. Not everyone's process is the same and making generalizations that fit yours may not fit everyone's.

Having a rough day?

Well I hope that did not sound that way. I was simply stating that there are many ways to skin a cat and not any one of them is appropriate for everybody.

Jimbo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:07 pm A successful All Grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-8%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill and tricks usually reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers.

Agree.

I reckon that it's possible to extend those tricks from brewing high-gravity beers to AG mashes, but the volumes involved in distilling make it more challenging. Using those tricks, I can reliably produce a 9-10% AG wash in my brewing gear without stressing yeasts or adding sugar, but I'm limited to about a 5 gallon batch. That would yield me a descent bottle of whiskey, but not much more. Not that I haven't made a few batches like that, just to play around.

No way I could replicate that kind of efficiency mashing on the grain in a 30-gallon (or bigger) blue barrel. Of course, if you happen to have a two-barrel brewing rig laying around...

Jimbo wrote: ↑Tue Apr 02, 2013 9:07 pm
A successful All Grain mash will produce a wash of about 6-8%. Its very difficult to push it higher than that. Getting that much malt in that little water, to produce anything higher is difficult and requires special skill and tricks usually reserved for high abv beer makers, triple belgians, double IPA's etc., NOT whiskey producers. Whiskey and bourbon producers target 6-8% wash, for a lot of reasons, not just mashing optimization but yeast health and quality of drink also. Stressed yeast produce a lot of crap, dimethyl sulfide, hydrogen sulfide, Isoamyl Acetate, congeners, esters, fusels, polyphenols, diacetyls etc etc. etc. You do NOT want that crap in your drink.

really using proper yeast strains it should be fairly easy to hit 10%. I do it all the time making beer and yes the typical yeast used in distalation purposes will do off flavors and such, but if you pick your yeast properly and get away from a high temp fermenting yeast and you use more grain and so on you should be able to easily hit 10% maybe a tad higher but it will take longer in every step especialy fermentation. instead of a couple days your talking a couple weeks, which is why comercial distilleries don't do it. the amount of liquid they can make with that 6% that takes 2 or 3 days to ferment far outweighs the amount they could make with a 10-12% wash that takes 2 weeks to ferment.

Steve

Dr Griz wrote: ↑Thu May 06, 2021 5:37 pm

Agree.

I reckon that it's possible to extend those tricks from brewing high-gravity beers to AG mashes, but the volumes involved in distilling make it more challenging. Using those tricks, I can reliably produce a 9-10% AG wash in my brewing gear without stressing yeasts or adding sugar, but I'm limited to about a 5 gallon batch. That would yield me a descent bottle of whiskey, but not much more. Not that I haven't made a few batches like that, just to play around.

No way I could replicate that kind of efficiency mashing on the grain in a 30-gallon (or bigger) blue barrel. Of course, if you happen to have a two-barrel brewing rig laying around...

the big difference I see is that for beer, I boil the wort for at least an hour (90 minutes for an imperial stout) to concentrate the sugars. It also gives new flavors via the Maillard reactions. But the first run wort is 1.070 OG and can't get much more.

So given that has anyone tried boiling for a wash? Wonder what flavors it would give?

subbrew wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:11 am...So given that has anyone tried boiling for a wash? Wonder what flavors it would give?

You try it!

I’ve done a wort boil for bourbon and single malt mashes many times...and it was nice in the spirit, with a bigger “mouthfeel” and reduced tannins or residual proteins in the product.

How well it benefits a sugar wash is up to you. Most here elect not to boil their mashes for simplicity’s sake.
ss

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am

subbrew wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:11 am...So given that has anyone tried boiling for a wash? Wonder what flavors it would give?

You try it!

I’ve done a wort boil for bourbon and single malt mashes many times...and it was nice in the spirit, with a bigger “mouthfeel” and reduced tannins or residual proteins in the product.

How well it benefits a sugar wash is up to you. Most here elect not to boil their mashes for simplicity’s sake.
ss

Unfortunately I am on a break until fall. Just to much to do over the summer. Thank you for the info though. So many ideas and things to try

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am
Most here elect not to boil their mashes for simplicity’s sake.

Exactly. To get good mash efficiencies, I usually go with more mash water (I aim for 1.5 qts/lb) and boil it down to volume. But that’s not exactly convenient. If I was aiming for time/cost efficiency, it would be a bad move. Good thing it’s a hobby.

I find the boiling helps clear the wash on wheat mash (the hot and cold breaks do a great job of coagulating gunk) but I can’t speak to any flavor impact one way or another.

still_stirrin wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 10:10 am

subbrew wrote: ↑Mon May 10, 2021 8:11 am...So given that has anyone tried boiling for a wash? Wonder what flavors it would give?

You try it!

I’ve done a wort boil for bourbon and single malt mashes many times...and it was nice in the spirit, with a bigger “mouthfeel” and reduced tannins or residual proteins in the product.

How well it benefits a sugar wash is up to you. Most here elect not to boil their mashes for simplicity’s sake.
ss

Simplifying the process is good, but the main thing is that it does not affect the quality of the product.

I find this thread interesting in many ways, first Jimbo’s original post is spot on and should have lead to multiple discussions at the time. The post originated in 2013 and the first response is in 2021. Seven years later Wow!

Bushman wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 5:47 am I find this thread interesting in many ways, first Jimbo’s original post is spot on and should have lead to multiple discussions at the time. The post originated in 2013 and the first response is in 2021. Seven years later Wow!

That is pretty humourous, and something I have only seen a few times in my years on the 'net.

This is the comment that I find interesting, although as a novice I can't put any knowledge to it.

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Tue May 04, 2021 10:20 am Some months back I did some sugar wash experiments for 8 - 9%, 10 - 11%, 12 - 13% and 14 - 15% abv of the finished wash.. and the abv levels were done at two different fermenting temp, one batch fermented at 70 - 82*F and one fermented at 85 - 90*F, and one batch of step addition fermented at 80*F, all done using RS yeast and finished dry in 4 days.. enough low wine was produce to give a spirit run of 7 gal at 38% abv for each categories..

The outcome of these experiment, the finished product, stripped and then refluxed all in the same manner, was that the 8 - 9% was not well like.. the best was the 10 - 11%, with the 80*F fermented one just a little better than the 85*F one.. overall the higher one were all good finished product also.. and there was no noticeable difference between step addition and the full sugar at start.. the only noticeable different between the step and full was the ferments were done in 3 days..

Mars

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 6:28 am This is the comment that I find interesting,

Can you quantify what was of interest or what item was of interest.. as there are numerous point mention..

Mars

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 9:56 am Can you quantify what was of interest or what item was of interest.. as there are numerous point mention..

Mars

Just the fact that it was the second lowest ABV and temp that made the best product. Seems moderation of both gave you better results.

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 10:17 am Seems moderation of both gave you better results.

It's not about moderation.. it's about developing consistence in replete ability in all aspect of the fermentation process..

One can make 15 - 16% wash as easily as a 10% sugar wash, if one develops understand of the process involved, and have the ferment done in less than 3 days, no matter is fermented at 80*F or 90*F..

You can keep the sugar low in amount and temp down, but still make shit from it.. there are other component required in the fermentation process to produce a good finished product..

Mars

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 12:09 pm It's not about moderation.. it's about developing consistence in replete ability in all aspect of the fermentation process..

One can make 15 - 16% wash as easily as a 10% sugar wash, if one develops understand of the process involved, and have the ferment done in less than 3 days, no matter is fermented at 80*F or 90*F..

You can keep the sugar low in amount and temp down, but still make shit from it.. there are other component required in the fermentation process to produce a good finished product..

Mars

Ok, so then I'm not sure of the point of your post where you showed results - this thread was about keeping the Mash ABVs down to produce a better product.

Further to that, what was the point of your experiment? Something different than to find out the best temp and ABV to produce the best product?

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 2:13 pm Ok, so then I'm not sure of the point of your post where you showed results - this thread was about keeping the Mash ABVs down to produce a better product.

The post was totally in line with the thread header.. but you seem to have misread or misunderstood what was I stated..

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 2:13 pm Further to that, what was the point of your experiment? Something different than to find out the best temp and ABV to produce the best product?

And from the statement, there's lots for you to learn yet on doing a proper ferment that is consistence..

Enjoy the journey of learning..

Mars

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 2:45 pm The post was totally in line with the thread header.. but you seem to have misread or misunderstood what was I stated..

Exactly. Feel free to clarify. The original poster seemed to be stating that washes of 6-8% produce the best product, but that was not your result.

And from the statement, there's lots for you to learn yet on doing a proper ferment that is consistence.

You are the first person I think who has ever used that word. I'm not sure how my not understanding what you wrote, means I need to learn more about doing a proper ferment....with what I assume you mean is consistent?

The spirit of the post is to teach us new up and comers not to worry about inflating our ABV into a realm where quality diminishes. As a novice I have a tendency to push my gravity into the 1070+ range because of greed and things I’ve seen on YouTube. I’m not particularly sure that having equipment to match boiler size is detrimental. I seem to do just fine with my 7 gallon setup to match my 8 gallon boiler. The key from this thread is to realize that the hobby of Distilling is NOT the hobby of beer brewing and that in order to get a decent product you need to have patience.

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 5:00 pm he original poster seemed to be stating that washes of 6-8% produce the best product, but that was not your result.

Re-read the original poster's comment.. the 6 - 8% was for a AG mash.. do you know the different between a mash and wash..

They are two different animals.. but you seem to mix and match..

I was making a statement of the finish product doing a wash..

Lots to learn yet.. enjoy the journey

Mars

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 5:31 pm Re-read the original poster's comment.. the 6 - 8% was for a AG mash.. do you know the different between a mash and wash..

They are two different animals.. but you seem to mix and match..

I was making a statement of the finish product doing a wash..

Lots to learn yet.. enjoy the journey

Mars

My apologies, I did use the word wash instead of mash when referring to the original poster. Yes, I do know the difference. I can see why you would think I was confused.

I'm still not sure what your point was though....the thread is about low ABV mashes, but you're commenting on a wash experiment you did - how does that corelate to mashes? Are you just saying the same does not apply for a sugar wash?

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 5:43 pm Yes, I do know the difference.

You may know the different of what the words mean.. but do you know how the mash abv is achieved, which are much different than that of a wash..

dunluce wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 5:43 pm how does that corelate to mashes? Are you just saying the same does not apply for a sugar wash?

You're starting to get it.. the abv of a mash is actually best at 5.5 - 6% level than higher.. as to a wash the best is at the 10%, but if one has knowledge and understanding of the process, one can make a wash at 16% and still be a very good product.. it's has a lot to do with what the ferment produces and what to take out and what to keep..

Developing knowledge and understanding only come from many experiment which means doing the many different wash from a consistence process and method, not just from a fermentation level, but also from a distilling level.. doing something consistently requires logging of info and discipline which is something few do..

This hobby is very interest, as it not only allow one to make a very fine finish product for himself, but also can teach many things about one self.. example.. when one is careless in his method or process, the ferment or the still lets you know by the end product..

Mars

StillerBoy wrote: ↑Wed May 19, 2021 6:24 pm but if one has knowledge and understanding of the process, one can make a wash at 16% and still be a very good product.

Really Stillerboy? Everything Ive ever read, seen, and been told, as well as my own experience tells me differently.
Do tell us more.
I'm sure that with your superior knowledge of fermentation on all levels, that you can unfold the mysteries of making great booze from high ABV washes that the rest of us seem to have missed.

If y’all aren’t careful you gonna release the Kraken and Jimbo come back to learn us all