Converting 100% corn

[aknewb1s]

This is the process I used:
12gal water
16lb flaked corn
4lb cracked corn

Boil 4 gal
Add 2lb cracked corn
Boil 30 min
Add 6 gal water or to 165f
Add 16lb flaked corn
Cool to 152f adding rest of water
Add 2lb cracked corn
Add 1.5tsp amylase
90min at 152f longer if iodine shows starch

The problem is that even after 5 hours at 152f iodine still showed starch. The wash does not taste sweet and the hydrometer shows very little sugar (1.010). It's at 80f now and iodine still turns purple.

What to do next?

Options:
1. Pitch yeast.
2. Give up on AG, throw in a bunch of sugar and then pitch yeast?
3. Give up on 100% corn, reheat to 152f and throw in some 6-row?
4. Dump it.
5. Other?

[aj2456]

hah, glad to see im not the only one whos done this, seriously annoyed me and i only did a 1 gallon test batch (crap saleman's info)

u probably only used alpha amylase- just hacks randomly so get a lot of big unfermentable starches and a little drop of sugar

to finish need a beta or glucoamylase- converts soluble starches to sugars

may also be able to get away with a beano tablet- has a similar enzyme in there

if u can do this in a day or so ur ok otherwise add some sugar and u will at least get a corn flavoured wash

[ga flatwoods]

Aknewb1s you did not give the corn initially enough temp or time to rest. Why split the cracked in two differing applications? Add it all at once. You said you boiled 30 minutes. I guess literally you had 4 gallons of water at 212f with two pounds corn. I usually do 200f stirring in grain to reach about185f and close lid for 90 min or so, wait for 153 and add barley malt. Stir and wait again.

To answer your question, you can 1. Do not pitch yeast yet, there is nothing there. 2. Reheat and retry just be careful not to scorch. 3. Add sugar to have a modified sugarhead. The cook should have helped with flavoring to some degree. 4. Do not throw it out and waste the grain unless you have scorched it already.
Good luck
GA Flatwoods

[woodshed]

Flatwoods is right. Add all of your cracked at the same time. Make sure you have some beta amalyze
and pitch it at a lower temp. Go in at 150 and let it rest for 90 to 120 minutes. All corn can be a tough bugger.

[bellybuster]

follow the advice above and use an appropriate amount of malted grain and your problems will disappear.

I experimented with only enzyme mashing and was less than successful. Regardless of an iodine test the SG could never be replicated or calculated. Different every attempt.
Doing a proper mash with malted grains for enzymes always resulted in a predictable SG.

[aknewb1s]

I need better enzymes next time, but this was Crosby & Baker Amylase.

None of the directions (probably wrong I'm guessing) I'd read indicated that boiling was necessary for flaked maize (http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Produc ... CornFlakes" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow).

The cracked corn was really just an afterthought/extra of something I thought I'd throw in to add a little bit more corn. Some directions called for boiling it, others called for adding it at 152f. I thought I'd just do both since it was extra anyway.

So I'll take this back up to a boil. How long?

Add 2lb of 6-row at 152f (I'd prefer to not do this as I wanted 100% corn, but I will if there is no other option for saving this) or try again with the amylase? Both?

Add Beano at 152f also? I can't get any other amylase today.

[woodshed]

Beta amalyze works best from 150 down to 140. As jimbo has pointed out before 142-145 being the sweet spot. Anything above that is being worked by alpha amalyze and producing mostly non fermentable sugars. Great for body and some flavor, lousy for alcohol production.
Try some beano if you feel it necessary to do today. At 1.010 you got nothing to lose.

[aknewb1s]

How much Beano?

[woodshed]

Never used it so can't help there.

[aknewb1s]

Update:

I brought it all up to boil for an hour and then brought it back down to 145ish, added 2lb of 6-row and let sit for several more hours. Spent several more hours at 120ish after adding Beano and after iodine tests sort of showed it converting pitched at normal yeast temps and then let sit for a couple weeks. I ended up with something that really isn't too bad though UJSSM would have been quite a bit more economical and more corny (less harsh whiskeyish) taste.

I'm about to try again. I have beta amylase this time (Viscoferm). The thing is that the literature doesn't claim any effect on corn/maize. What should I do different? Spending most of the day cooking corn again doesn't seem like a good plan and I really want 100% corn this time.

[frunobulax]

Is 1.5 tsp. of amylase enough for 16 lbs. of corn?

[badsmerf]

Update:

I brought it all up to boil for an hour and then brought it back down to 145ish, added 2lb of 6-row and let sit for several more hours. Spent several more hours at 120ish after adding Beano and after iodine tests sort of showed it converting pitched at normal yeast temps and then let sit for a couple weeks. I ended up with something that really isn't too bad though UJSSM would have been quite a bit more economical and more corny (less harsh whiskeyish) taste.

I'm about to try again. I have beta amylase this time (Viscoferm). The thing is that the literature doesn't claim any effect on corn/maize. What should I do different? Spending most of the day cooking corn again doesn't seem like a good plan and I really want 100% corn this time.

I just did an all corn run. I'm not sure how UJSSM tastes, so I couldn't compare. From 10 gallons I ended up with about a gallon of 40%. I didn't malt my corn long enough so didn't get 100% conversion on a 50/50 split. I added some sugar to make sure I did get some product, probably 5 pounds is all though. It ended up getting some lacto bacteria in it before I could run it, but it seems like this is pretty normal/preferable for corn.

I'm malting more corn right now and will let it go a little further and hopefully get better conversion. I'm not sure what my method for mashing is going to be yet, but I might borrow a friends turkey cooker and use that to gelatinize the corn. I also fermented on the grain and kinda strained it out to run it. I didn't want to run completely on the grain in case it burnt. I did end up with some burnt to the bottom right where the flame hits, but couldn't tell in the taste. I'm not going to run on grain until I have a different set-up that makes it easier. I don't think it will have much less alcohol or flavor by straining it and will make cleaning much easier.

[aknewb1s]

From 10 gallons I ended up with about a gallon of 40%. I didn't malt my corn long enough so didn't get 100% conversion on a 50/50 split. I added some sugar to make sure I did get some product, probably 5 pounds is all though.

How many pounds of corn?

If I did the calculation right it seems 38oz of your 51oz of ethanol were from the sugar.

As I mentioned I'm about to try again. I've attached a picture of what I have (flaked maize). Is it malted (I don't think it can be flaked after it malts right?), how should I cook it? Boil? Enzymes on warmup or cool down? At what temps for the enzymes, rests and possible boil? I don't want to use 6-row again. 100% corn this time. I'm a bit mystified on how to get this convert. Help!

[Prairiepiss]

Flakes corn is pre gelatinized corn. That has been through a roller. It doesn't need to be boiled. Bringing it up to gelatinizing temps. Should be all that's needed. And a good bit of stirring.

Cracked corn on the otherhand will need to be boiled. So it can be gelatinized. And the starches can be released.

So if you are using both cracked and flaked. I would boil the cracked by itself. Will make boiling it easier. Once it has been gelatinized. Add enough water for the flaked. And bring the temp back up to a boil. Add the flaked corn. And shut the heat off. Stir the crap out of it.

That's just what I would do.

[aknewb1s]

Flakes corn is pre gelatinized corn. That has been through a roller. It doesn't need to be boiled. Bringing it up to gelatinizing temps. Should be all that's needed.

What geletanization temperature would you recommend?

I'm not using cracked corn this time. Just the flakes.

I think I did all you mentioned and more with the first try and that didn't convert. I tried adding alpha amylase then too. Now I have beta/gluco as well. Would they be of any use?

[badsmerf]

You seem to be right about the sugar supplying a good amount of my alcohol. I didn't measure the amount of sugar, so it might not have even been 5 lbs. Either way, I need better conversion. Gelatinization of corn occurs at 180, I tried to keep mine 190-200. You can really tell when it starts happening. My thermometer broke in the middle of it, so one of the 2 batches i did didn't really gel and the other probably only got half-way done. I didn't realize the thermometer was broken until I took it out. I will need a more effective method anyway.

How are you malting your corn? Are you sure you are letting it go long enough to develop the necessary enzymes? Also, make sure you aren't adding them at too high of a temp. The whole conversion process needs a starch and enzymes, so you should be able to convert with just the enzymes and the flakes if you want. I would imagine the flakes are a bit more money than kernel corn though. I get all my corn for free basically, but I might buy some rye or barley to experiment with. If the corn doesn't convert better I will try malting an alternative next.

[Blak3timus Prime]

Claw hammer supply has a great way of doing it. Had great success with mine. Good yield. But I used deer corn, not doing that again!! It both smelled and tasted rotten.

[aknewb1s]

Gelatinization of corn occurs at 180, I tried to keep mine 190-200.

I've seen a variety of published temperatures all in the 144-169 range. None as high as 180. The enzymes denature/become inactive over 176ish so I don't think you want to exceed that.

How are you malting your corn?

I'm not. I just have the flakes. I don't think you can malt flakes.

so you should be able to convert with just the enzymes and the flakes if you want.

If so, I can't figure out how.

So abject and utter failure again.
This is the process I used:
7gal water
10lb flaked maize

Boil 4 gal to sanitize everything
Add 3 gal cold water to bring to 130F
Add flaked maize
Temp lowers to 120
Iodine check - shows starch - good
Add beta/gluc enzyme (4ml Viscoferm)
Rest 30 min
Iodine check - shows starch - bad?
Raise temp to 152 over the course of an hour
Add alpha amylase (.4 oz Endo‐Alpha Amylase (Termamyl))
Slowly raise temp to 160
Maize seems to be gelatinized
Iodine check - shows starch - bad?
Lower temp to 152 over the course of another hour
Iodine check - shows starch - bad
Add more alpha amylase (.4 oz Endo‐Alpha Amylase (Termamyl))
Lower temp to 120 over the course of another hour or two
Iodine check - shows starch - bad, bad, bad
Add more beta/gluc enzyme (4ml Viscoferm)
Let sit for another couple hours
Temp is now 110ish
Iodine check - shows starch - WTF?

What next? Try to boil this mess?

[Prairiepiss]

Either your enzymes have been denatured. From miss handling or being old. Or somethingin the water mite be killing them off? Or maybe just not enough being used?

Or your iodine test is being compromised by solids? It has to be very clear liquid for it to work.

No need to boil the iodine test is showing you have already extracted the starches. You got to get some enzymes in there that will work. I know you are trying for 100% corn. But I would look at adding some good malted barley. Just to see if you can get full conversion. Remember to use enough to get 30 DP per pound of grain total.

[aknewb1s]

The enzymes are brand new straight from the manufacturer. I've checked the PH and used the recommended amounts of enzymes (well actually double the quantity since I added them on warmup and cooldown). I've checked the clearest liquid I can get short of running it through a coffee filter first (hmmm... that's an idea, maybe I should?). This mix should taste sweet too right? It really didn't when I tasted it.

Adding 6-row is what I resorted to the first time. Its not at all what I'm going for though.

I got 100% Rye to work using this same process. I know corn has different temps which I've accounted for, but there's something I'm missing here if other people are seeing this flaked maize converting.

[Prairiepiss]

Just because you think they are brand new. Doesn't always mean they are. And how they were handled from the manufacture to your door. Can make a big difference. Have these particular enzymes been used with another grain with good results?

I know adding malt is not what your going for. But the enzymes you are trying. Aren't working. Obviously. So instead of wasting what you have. Adding malt doesn't sound like a bad idea. At least to me it doesn't.

I would add the malt to this batch. Just to get it going. Then start some smaller test batches. With a couple different unmalted grains. To see how the enzymes work for them. They can always be mixed together to make a good ferment after the mash testing.

Where did the flaked corn come from?

[aknewb1s]

Just because you think they are brand new. Doesn't always mean they are. And how they were handled from the manufacture to your door. Can make a big difference. Have these particular enzymes been used with another grain with good results?

I guess that's a risk everyone takes with everything. You depend on the manufacturer delivering a good product to you.

I used the enzymes previously with 100% rye. That seems to have gone well -- fermenting now.

Then start some smaller test batches. With a couple different unmalted grains. To see how the enzymes work for them. They can always be mixed together to make a good ferment after the mash testing.

I think that's a good suggestion. Working with a small pot is certainly easier even if it takes the same amount of time. After the rye, I just hoped that the maize would convert -- somehow.

Where did the flaked corn come from?

This batch I I didn't source it so I don't know. The previous one was Briess and came from a local home brew shop. Same problem with both.

[Usge]

Don't know if this will help or not...but I've done quite a few Briess Flaked corn AG mashes. I found that regardless of temp...it still needs to time to hydrate. The best results I achieved was by bringing it up to a boil for just a few mins...(a rolling boil), then turning it off and letting it steep/cool down to 150 before adding my malt (enzymes). I stirred this occasionally and it got much thicker over time. It usually took a couple hours at least to cool down. Adding just a touch of pre-malt...kept it loose but thick.

I never had very good results just bringing it up to mash out. It's just not long enough (in my opinion) for it to really hydrate properly and get everything out of it. It works "fine" as an adjunct to a beer to do it this way. And that's about all you want/need out of it. But, if you are trying to take it down to it's undershorts...you gonna need more time and heat to get it to work on out. That's been my experience every time.

Secondly, getting anything out of cracked corn takes even more time and heat. Dnder (I sure miss him) used to say...think of it like cooking dried beans. You want it to swell up. To do that...you need to do a combination of boiling and "steeping" (cover it and let it sit in hot water for a while) to get it swell up good. Then go at it with some type of aggressive stirring to break it all up good. Some use a paint or mortar stirrer on a drill. Once you get it all broken down "THEN" you add your enzymes (whatever you using). The only exception to that might be a bit of pre-malt.

Thirdly...flaked corn gets really thick/dense when it starts swelling up. A mash that is too thick (with corn anyway) can sometimes impede the process of malting/enzymes working efficiently. I think part of what might be happening would be a combination of all of the above: your feed corn isn't quite getting cooked out, while your flaked corn is just starting to release starches (which is why you continually see more starch over time while it steeps). Your enzymes at that point don't have much to convert..and as it converts..more starch is being produced...and also things get thicker as it goes.

I think the solution is to just do a little more time up front prepping your corn (whatever you are using). And I agree with P...cook the hard stuff first (feed corn). Boil the snot out of it for about 30-45 mins..then...turn off heat..let it sit for a few hours or even overnight. If you want to try and cook/mash them both together...at that point...bring it back up on the heat, add your flaked maze...let it come to a rolling boil for about 5 mins or so, then shut the heat...and cover it and let it steep until it cools to mashing temp. Stir it along the way. It's going to get very thicker as it goes. Probably take 2 or 3 hours to cool into mashing range. If you need to loosen it...add a bit of pre-malt. Keep stirring it. When it gets down to mashing temps...add whatever you want to use (enzymes or malt grains). I personally use 6-row barley malt crushed good. And use beta in the fermenter.

Finally, when you mash it out...leave it sit..stirring every 15-30 mins or so..for a couple hours (or longer)...until when you open it...you see golden, clear liquid on the top. It will continue to convert even out of optimum temp range...it just takes longer. If you are using a lot of flaked maize..that's just going to be a couple inches on the top. Make sure you test only the clear liquid and not getting any solids or particulate in it. You should see a clean starch test at that point. Then..the only trick is getting it strained off . That's particularly an issue with the flaked corn. If you are fermenting on the grain, line your fermeter bucket with a x large nylon mesh grain bag. Then dump everything in. When it's done fermenting...pull up the bag and "sqeeeeze" it good. Then let the liquid settle/clear (rack again if you need to).

The commercial flaked maize I've used (at least the Briess) is "food grade" corn. To my taste..it has a somewhat smoother taste than the feed variety. It can work well, the only issues being mainly...the cost of it, and straining the liquid out of it after the fact. Don't know if any of that helps or not, but that's been my experience with it.

[Prairiepiss]

I was hoping you would comment Usge.

[Halfbaked]

My question is Why? Why use flaked corn unless you already have it or its free. From what I see flaked corn is almost the same price as malt. I understand you can't get malted corn. Cracked corn is almost free ($10 for 50lb). I have no experience in flaked corn but with what Usage has said I don't think I will ever have any. Cracked corn is no more effort (or very little) than flaked and there are all grain corn receipts on HD and some are really simple. Most use malt. Have you ever thought of malting your own corn? Malted corn might not be what you want to convert your corn but work better as a 100% malt corn likkkkker. If you messed it up you would not be out of much except your time. There are lots of threads out here on it. Good luck and don't give up.

[woodshed]

I agree with halfbaked. Get into malting your own corn. I find the process very rewarding and leads to a true all corn product.
You will find many good ideas on malting corn by looking around here.

[Usge]

If price is your only criteria...the by all means...use feed corn. lb for lb...it is obviously the cheapest way to go. Even food grade dent corn (not flaked)...is far more expensive.

halfbaked...using flaked corn is simple. You just have to bring it to a boil and let it cool to mash temps while stirring once and while. The add your malt or enzymes. That's it. The hard part..if you want to call it that...is straining it. I use a bag...and jsut squeeze it out. And because you haven't boiled it for long time...you don't loose as much volume/water. I also like the way it tastes. So, don't get me wrong. The complication here...in OP ...is that he's trying to use both together at the same time because they require different cooking times.

Malt corn works...but in my experience ..you won't get the same kind of return SG out of it. And good luck malting cracked corn You'll want the whole kernel variety.

[Halfbaked]

If price is your only criteria...the by all means...use feed corn. lb for lb...it is obviously the cheapest way to go. Even food grade dent corn (not flaked)...is far more expensive.

halfbaked...using flaked corn is simple. You just have to bring it to a boil and let it cool to mash temps while stirring once and while. The add your malt or enzymes. That's it. The hard part..if you want to call it that...is straining it. I use a bag...and jsut squeeze it out. And because you haven't boiled it for long time...you don't loose as much volume/water. I also like the way it tastes. So, don't get me wrong. The complication here...in OP ...is that he's trying to use both together at the same time because they require different cooking times.

Malt corn works...but in my experience ..you won't get the same kind of return SG out of it. And good luck malting cracked corn You'll want the whole kernel variety.

While price is important I would say what you get out of it is the most important. What ever you buy to mash is going to be cheaper than buying it already in the liquid form and a possibility of being better and 100% chance its what you want. If feed corn at 20 cents a lb makes the same quality drop as $1.00 a lb or more I say go with the cheaper. If you get a better result with the more expensive in taste now that's an entire diff story.

Using cracked corn is simple also. You bring it to a boil and drop your corn and let it set for at least 3 hours (more time than flaked but no more work) wrapped up so as to retain heat. Stir 1 time. Exact same as flaked just you need to hold temps higher longer. Don't have to cook it longer just keep it hot longer.

Never done a malted corn. I would love to. If you have I would love to taste but just a drop. I hope you were not thinking I was suggesting malting cracked corn. If I were half baked I might try it .hahahaahahhaa It would be lots of work to malt dry grind and prob not very good yield but I bet it would be good as strait corn could get. Maybe even put a little smoke on it when it was wet and kick it up a BIT. All these are just an honest opinion. I am sure that you have done more and have more knowledge than I.

[woodshed]

halfbaked, you should try it. Could be perceived as a hassle or rewarding. Most of my malted goes through a smoking phase to finish. OG is insignificantly lower than using 6 row.
I go in at a 70/30 unmalted/ malted rate. The 70% is steam rolled and cracked. For the most part cracked. And cracked again. Then brought up to temp and allowed to sit.
Malted goes in at 152F, drops to 148F at grain in. I'm good with that. Sits for 90 minutes. Full conversion. Finish at 143F. I shoot for 8% as I find my taste's are there.

[Halfbaked]

Halfbaked would like that. Woodshed I assume your 70 malt/30 unmalted is all corn. I would like to do a smoked malted garden sweet corn. Ive not malted anything yet. Maybe one day. I like the smoke. Id like to see pics of how you do it malt and smoke. When you malt how many pounds do you do?