Oak advice

[johnsmith]

I've looked around, and the advice for the amount of oak to use seems to be all over the place. I see 15 sq in/qt, and about 6(ish)g per qt as the clearest guidelines I could find, outside of "stick the wood in there, taste frequently; pull it before it's over oaked, or if it seems overoaked leave it in for longer."I have no idea if these two values represent similar amounts of wood or no... I've got the basic idea the less wood for longer time is probably better, but I can't figure out what constitutes "less" wood.

Here's my deal. I've got a bunch of Pugirum at 62%. I'm planning on aging in quart jars filled to 750mL. I've got white oak sticks about 6" x 1" x 0.5" and generally weighing 30-40g. The grain runs lengthwise, and these are new sticks. I'm anticipating aging for year or longer. How much wood do you folk with experience suggest using?

As an added bit of info... So I can appreciate the effect of time and wood, I'm planning on a few different trials. I'll age some without wood, some with raw wood (I know, likely disgusting), and then some with light, medium, and dark toasts. If I have left over spirit, I'll do a dark char (I know, it'll probably be more bourbon like than rum). If I still have spirit left, I might try either charring the other toasts, or take a shot at spiced rum.

Thanks in advance for your advice!

[Jimbo]

A 53g barrel is 52 square inches per gallon. A 5x1x1 stick is 88 sq inches per gallon. I use a stick that size cut from jack daniels staves, and then charred all around. Since its used it seems a good amount. After 6 months Im pretty happy with both the aging and the oak flavoring. In other words the amount of oak compliments the age and at 6 months both make for damn fine drinking.

If that wood is new you need to toast it in the oven at 400 for a couple hours. That caramelizes the sugars and brings out the vanilla notes. Then char it all around with a propane torch. A deep char would be more bourbon like. A lighter char, not enough to alligator crack might be more suiting to a rum. Also, I hope that oak you have is white oak and not red oak. Red oak will make your drink smell like cat piss. Not the effect youre after. Also I wouldnt bother with the raw wood, or if you really want to experiment waste a small jar full. It will just make your drink taste woody. No caramel, no vanilla.

[johnsmith]

A 5x1x1 stick is 88 sq inches per gallon.

Took me a moment, but that a stick that size in a quart of spirit. So my sticks are 76 sq inches / gallon, but new oak... I could cut them down a hair...

If that wood is new you need to toast it in the oven at 400 for a couple hours... Also, I hope that oak you have is white oak and not red oak.

Yes, should've specified. White oak from scrap wood from a local mill. Probably hasn't sat out for two years being ideally seasoned and weathered, but I think that's the best I can do for the moment. Which does means it's new wood, which I understand may not be entirely ideal for rum, probably better for whiskey. So yes, toasting is the plan.

Also I wouldnt bother with the raw wood, or if you really want to experiment waste a small jar full. It will just make your drink taste woody.

Good point, no use in wasting a full quart of something I can do something that's more likely to yield tasty results with.

Thank you!

[sltm1]

I toasting some oak sticks in the oven today, but I'm not sure how chared to get them. Do you do it like you're scorching wood to bring out the grain, or do i go to black?

[Jimbo]

A typical #4 char is pretty dark and deep, black. Its deep enough that the surface starts to crack and peel (alligator char). Then soak the sticks in water for several minutes and give them a light rubbing together. The water will be black and it will knock off lots of loose crud. Also the water penetrates the oak some and helps with transition of the oak compounds in the alcohol bath they are about to get.

Here's a good read, there's a section on charring (1/8 inch deep char)

http://www.distilling.com/PDF/chapter4.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[sltm1]

Thanx for the advice and a good read on the pdf !! It's been bookmarked also.

[Jimbo]

Did you read the bit in there about the benefits of a lighter char also. You can get the benefit of both worlds by charring one end of the stick lighter and the other darker.

That ADI book is a good read. Change chapter in url.

[sltm1]

Yep I did, but I went a different way (best of bolth worlds maybe). After charring, i went over the wood with a wire brush to knock off the scale and it lightened up some in color also. Thanks for the tip on changing chapters.

[FullySilenced]

Try nuking a quart of your rum with JD chips .... i do think you will be amazed... use maybe an amount equal to 1 fluid ounce of chips per quart of rum... and follow the nuke thread

[corene1]

A 53g barrel is 52 square inches per gallon. A 5x1x1 stick is 88 sq inches per gallon. I use a stick that size cut from jack daniels staves, and then charred all around. Since its used it seems a good amount. After 6 months Im pretty happy with both the aging and the oak flavoring. In other words the amount of oak compliments the age and at 6 months both make for damn fine drinking.

If that wood is new you need to toast it in the oven at 400 for a couple hours. That caramelizes the sugars and brings out the vanilla notes. Then char it all around with a propane torch. A deep char would be more bourbon like. A lighter char, not enough to alligator crack might be more suiting to a rum. Also, I hope that oak you have is white oak and not red oak. Red oak will make your drink smell like cat piss. Not the effect youre after. Also I wouldnt bother with the raw wood, or if you really want to experiment waste a small jar full. It will just make your drink taste woody. No caramel, no vanilla.

Hey Jimbo I have a couple of questions. First If the stick is 1X1 and 5 inches long I only come up with 22 sq. inches of surface area. If a barrel has 52 sq. inches per gallon it would only need 13 sq. inches of oak per quart. These are questions not criticism I am just verifying , You also use JD oak staves, are they once used or new. I am having a little trouble with my oaking. Do you think new wood puts out more woody flavor than once used barrel staves. I am using white oak rounds that were cut 3 years ago for firewood. They are very dry as they have gone through 3 summers here with average summer temps always near 100. I am cutting my wood from the heart of the round and toasting it at 350 for 3 hours, they come out a nice tan. then a light char on the out side.. I soak them in water for a couple of days before I use them, but the color and flavor of the wood comes on really fast. 1 month in a quart and it is very dark with a noticeable wood flavor. I am afraid to see what would happen after 6 months on oak. Oh yea , my wood is 2X2 1 inch thick so there is 8 sq. inches of cross grain exposed and a total of 16 sq. inches

[Jimbo]

Hi Corene, yes 88 sq in/gal with 1 stick per quart. Seems to work since the wood is used JD barrels. For new oak 52 sq in would give u oaking of a 53g barrel. Lots of places use small barrels to oak faster (greater than 52 sq in/g). On the flip Scots and other spirits makers say new barrels are too much oak, ok for bourbon but not single malt, so they use used bourbon barrels.

Anyway, long story short, cut Em down if too much oak w new sticks, 3 in long per quart is 56 sq in/ gal. Also your hooch if 60% aging will get watered down w 1/3 water to get 80pr so that will cut the oak flavors down too.

[corene1]

Hi Corene, yes 88 sq in/gal with 1 stick per quart. Seems to work since the wood is used JD barrels. For new oak 52 sq in would give u oaking of a 53g barrel. Lots of places use small barrels to oak faster (greater than 52 sq in/g). On the flip Scots and other spirits makers say new barrels are too much oak, ok for bourbon but not single malt, so they use used bourbon barrels.

Anyway, long story short, cut Em down if too much oak w new sticks, 3 in long per quart is 56 sq in/ gal. Also your hooch if 60% aging will get watered down w 1/3 water to get 80pr so that will cut the oak flavors down too.

Thanks for the info. I bought a bottle of Kilbeggan Irish whiskey tonight just to sample the flavors in it. It is really quite good but not a hint of oak or wood. and they use old port or sherry barrels for their aging. I also double read the barrel aging article and it described where I am at to a tee......... "To sample the whiskey, remove the bung and draw up about an ounce of it with a glass wine thief or a large pipette, and empty it into a wineglass. Take a nose and taste of the cask- strength whiskey, and then dilute it half-and-half with water and nose and taste it again. While the whiskey is still immature, it will have an unbalanced flavor of straight wood and a burnt taste. When the whiskey is ready, it’ll have a smooth, rich, balanced flavor with characteristics of the wood and char, but the raw woody, burnt taste will have subsided"........ So I am going to take a couple jars off oak and leave a couple jars on oak and compare them in another month and see what happens. I think I will take some of my old oak and store it in a container with some whiskey in it and then use it to oak some barley and wheat AG at a later date.

[varocketry]

Jimbo:

Great read, thanks. I catch something new each time I read through that as it usually applies to some learning I'd just experienced.

I just ABV tested my five gallon carboy as I prepare to put it up in the Balcones 5 gal barrel just received. A pour from the 5gal carboy tested out at 45.5%. This well short of the 55-65% recommended in Chapter 5 for cask strength.

Question: DO I need to redistill this Spirit Run (2 prior distillations) to bring it up higher on the third run?
If yes, do I, for this purpose, dilute it to 30% again to redistill it? Will it achieve a higher proof this way?

[Jimbo]

The 55-65 advice is also driven by economics. Barrels are expensive! I age single run Apple Brandy thats around 45% on oak and it turns out great. I wouldnt mess with that, just put it in the barrel and let er go.

Here's some pics, 3 month, 6 month and 12 month, left to right. The 3 month on the left tastes young, still white doggy young and underoaked as you can see by the color. At 6 months its nice. The white dog mellows (usually around 4-6 months) and the oak kicks in. Its a good time at 6 months, she's ready. At a year, its no darker, the oak did most its work by 6 months, but its more smooth and mellow from the age. This is all with used oak, sticks cut out of used JD barrels, 1x1x5 stick per quart. Also, the 12 month shown spent time in a balcones barrel, so its not a purely scientific experiment but you get the idea from the 3 and 6 month olds here. At 6 with JD sticks i have to watch it. Ive pulled some stuff off at 6-8 months as its got enough oak, and the wood starts to cover the grain and fruit flavors from the mash.

[sltm1]

Hot Damn, this is interesting stuff! I'm surprised at how soon it starts to color from the oak, 6 hrs and it looks like weak sun tea. I've seen a coupe of threads mentioning "distress aging", is it worth looking into or is time the best method of aging hands down?

[Jimbo]

I tried the nuclear aging thing. My opinion is its good if you want to drink something that you just made NOW. It seems to help improve the quality of rawdog in just a few cycles through the micro and fridge. But long term it doesnt add much value. Even after 2-4 weeks, side by side with one that wasnt nuked, they start to become very similar.

Its not a miracle worker.

If your desperate, it might give you a 1 month old in a few hours. But,.... a 1 month old is still pretty raw.

Thats just my opinion, for what its worth.

[corene1]

The 55-65 advice is also driven by economics. Barrels are expensive! I age single run Apple Brandy thats around 45% on oak and it turns out great. I wouldnt mess with that, just put it in the barrel and let er go.

Here's some pics, 3 month, 6 month and 12 month, left to right. The 3 month on the left tastes young, still white doggy young and underoaked as you can see by the color. At 6 months its nice. The white dog mellows (usually around 4-6 months) and the oak kicks in. Its a good time at 6 months, she's ready. At a year, its no darker, the oak did most its work by 6 months, but its more smooth and mellow from the age. This is all with used oak, sticks cut out of used JD barrels, 1x1x5 stick per quart. Also, the 12 month shown spent time in a balcones barrel, so its not a purely scientific experiment but you get the idea from the 3 and 6 month olds here. At 6 with JD sticks i have to watch it. Ive pulled some stuff off at 6-8 months as its got enough oak, and the wood starts to cover the grain and fruit flavors from the mash.

Oak3-6-12mo.JPG

Oak3-6-12mo2.JPG

Now you have me worrying again. My sticks of oak are much smaller and the color is darker in only a couple of weeks. I will have to post a picture

[corene1]

The 55-65 advice is also driven by economics. Barrels are expensive! I age single run Apple Brandy thats around 45% on oak and it turns out great. I wouldnt mess with that, just put it in the barrel and let er go.

Here's some pics, 3 month, 6 month and 12 month, left to right. The 3 month on the left tastes young, still white doggy young and underoaked as you can see by the color. At 6 months its nice. The white dog mellows (usually around 4-6 months) and the oak kicks in. Its a good time at 6 months, she's ready. At a year, its no darker, the oak did most its work by 6 months, but its more smooth and mellow from the age. This is all with used oak, sticks cut out of used JD barrels, 1x1x5 stick per quart. Also, the 12 month shown spent time in a balcones barrel, so its not a purely scientific experiment but you get the idea from the 3 and 6 month olds here. At 6 with JD sticks i have to watch it. Ive pulled some stuff off at 6-8 months as its got enough oak, and the wood starts to cover the grain and fruit flavors from the mash.

The attachment Oak3-6-12mo.JPG is no longer available

The attachment Oak3-6-12mo2.JPG is no longer available

Now you have me worrying again. My sticks of oak are much smaller and the color is darker in only a couple of weeks. I will have to post a picture

This is some AG that I put on oak on 12-9-13 that is 7 days ago. It is already quite dark. It is a Barley , wheat, and rye AG at 62% and will have to be cut when finished .

[Jimbo]

That doesnt look too dark, lots of color comes over early, all the surface sugars that got caramelized. How does your stuff look thats been aging for several months? Definitely a difference between new and used oak tho for sure, at least as far as char side. I always assumed the JD sticks were both old and new, inside/outside side of the stick. I dont know how deep that alcohol goes in aging, but the staves are a full inch thick, and I get dark colors running off the stick in a couple hours, its cool to watch, like wave in the jar settling into the bottom. I posted a pic on here once ... http://homedistiller.org/forum/download ... p?id=21057

Here's some apple brandy thats about a month old now. This is lower proof, 45%, and still pretty light. Lots of variables that affect color - depth of char, proof of alcohol, temperature of alc, whether you soaked and cleaned up the sticks or not, new/used of course, etc.

[sltm1]

Jimbo, no rush, I like it in the "white" too. I'll just use the true aging process. Here's my results after just one night.

[corene1]

I like that picture of the oak bleeding it's color. To answer you question . the whiskey doesn't really get much darker in time, the color happens pretty quick then settles down. I am going to do an experiment tonight. I have some wash that I made from my spent grains , you call it a gumball head or a sugar head wash. I am going to do one jar with new oak and one with once used oak and chart the differences in color and flavor. I split one of my used oak chunks to look at the inside and compared it with the chunk of wood it was cut from. You can really see how the toasting and charring opens up the grains in the wood. pretty interesting.

[Jimbo]

Here's good info with pics on char level and effect. http://www.iscbarrels.com/char-options" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Jimbo]

Note the 'Craft Distillers Char' is a very dark char. Several reasons for that. Not only to darken up the drink faster, but the charcoal acts as a filter, activated charcoal filter to absorb flavors faster. Craft distilleries, unlike the established old guys, are trying to sell their stuff in months, not years.

The lighter chars are fruitier, the darker more vanilla and caramel. We homestillers are lucky in that we can have both. Do a dark char stick and a light char stick and drop em both in to get the best of both worlds.

[corene1]

Note the 'Craft Distillers Char' is a very dark char. Several reasons for that. Not only to darken up the drink faster, but the charcoal acts as a filter, activated charcoal filter to absorb flavors faster. Craft distilleries, unlike the established old guys, are trying to sell their stuff in months, not years.

The lighter chars are fruitier, the darker more vanilla and caramel. We homestillers are lucky in that we can have both. Do a dark char stick and a light char stick and drop em both in to get the best of both worlds.

That is some good information, Judging from the photos I am doing a dark char, so that is why I am getting color so quickly. Did you see in the photo I posted that the toasting went all the way through the oak. There are just so many things that affect the flavor, always learning.

[sunshine1101]

if I was to put a bottle away for several years would I use a smaller piece of oak per quart than the discussed 1x1x3? I think I am going to label 1 jar per run so I know what mash I used and how it was distilled and put it up for longer aging. I don't want to over oak I am after the mellowing that comes from the ageing itself.

[Jimbo]

if I was to put a bottle away for several years would I use a smaller piece of oak per quart than the discussed 1x1x3? I think I am going to label 1 jar per run so I know what mash I used and how it was distilled and put it up for longer aging. I don't want to over oak I am after the mellowing that comes from the ageing itself.

This is subjective, but Ive been using 1x1x5 Jack Daniels used barrel based sticks, with a light char all around. They seem to hold up fine for a good long time, year plus, without over oaking. If your oak is brand new unused, toast and char a smaller piece. 3" might be good.

[school]

Sorry for the dumb question, but how on earth does a 1x1x5 inch stick equal 22 square inches? I can’t make that math work in my head.

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Sorry for the dumb question, but how on earth does a 1x1x5 inch stick equal 22 square inches? I can’t make that math work in my head.

Surface area. Four sides, 1x5 is 5 sq inch. 5+5+5+5=20.... then your 2 ends. 1×1.. 1+1=2..(20 +2 is... ).

[school]

Surface area. Four sides, 1x5 is 5 sq inch. 5+5+5+5=20.... then your 2 ends. 1×1.. 1+1=2..(20 +2 is... ).

.

I’ll be damned. Thank you.

[kiwi Bruce]

It's a very math involved hobby...but remember :- A mind is a terrible thing...(we punish it with alcohol)