Fermenting without yeast

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Fermenting without yeast

Post by NC_redcock »

I know this has got to be covered on this forum somewhere but after typing in the keywords I thought would yield results nothing came up so here it goes....I prepared a mash yesterday with no yeast, instead I am utilizing malted barley and rye for the starch conversion, this is my first go at this and was wondering if the ferment time which is usually 5-7 days will be any different? Thanks for your time on this one, seems simple but I just want to be sure.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by Prairiepiss »

Moonshiners show strikes again. Or was it YouTube.

Sory but you can not ferment alcohol without yeast. I don't care what you have seen elsewhere. You can not ferment without yeast.

So what you are trying to do is ferment using wild yeast. That is present all around us. So you need to research wild yeast.

Malted grains will not ferment an alcohol. They may have some wild yeast attached to the malt. And that is where the fermentation comes from. But the only thing melting does is creates enzymes needed to convert starches to sugars.

Using wild yeast is a crap shoot. Depending on where they were collected. You mite het a good healthy strain. Or mite get a crappy one. It may work good. Or it may not at all.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by rad14701 »

How will this ferment without yeast...??? Been paying too much attention to the Moonshiners episodes where they discuss no yeast...??? Fermentation requires yeast, whether you pitch it or you let it sit open to possibly catch some wild yeast...

Posted the same time as Prariepiss - interrupted by a phone call...
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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NC_redcock wrote:I prepared a mash yesterday with no yeast, instead I am utilizing malted barley and rye for the starch conversion
Yeast is never used in a mash. Mashing converts starch to sugar. Yeast converts sugar to alcohol. You cant even rely on any wild yeasts here, since if you mashed properly at 145 degrees, you killed all the yeast present. What you have sir is a bucket of sugar and bacteria. Go buy some yeast, bakers or beer, quick, and get it in there. After the mash its always a race between the yeast and the bacteria. Right now youve given the wrong team a head start.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Prairiepiss wrote:Moonshiners show strikes again. Or was it YouTube.
It's been youtube for me as I don't own a television, but what research I've done has brought me to the conclusion that it's possible to convert the starches with just malted grains so I figured I would give it a whirl, I don't really care for the aftertaste that yeast gives, however this is only my 5th mash that I'm currently working on and the first attempt with no conventional yeast. I've got some burping but nothing like the yeast has given me. Just figured it was taking longer. Thanks for your insight Prairiepiss.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by NC_redcock »

Wow, you guys are quick, I've got yeast at home, I was just gonna try it without it, it's been less than 24 hours so I'll add yeast when I get home. What's the least amount of yeast I can add to a 5 gallon bucket and still get conversion?
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by midwest shinner »

Next time try the google hd search, it seems to pull up more results. And the issue i see is that you have starches turning into sugars from the malt,but nothing to turn those sugars into alcohol(i.e. yeast) so either the fermenter has to be left open to allow yeast in from the outside(you may get good yeasts or they may not work so well at all,this method is hit or miss) or it has to be added. Granted the malt grains likely have some kinda live critters on it from being outside and not having been pasturized, but more than likely those live critters will ruin your mash...Fermentation can be looked at as a battle between the good critters(yeast) and the bad critters(lacto, or butyric to name a couple) so all you are doing by not adding any yeast is giving the bad critters a leg up, imho. Posted at same time as rad and PP.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by Jimbo »

NC_redcock wrote:What's the least amount of yeast I can add to a 5 gallon bucket and still get conversion?
"least amount possible" is a bad approach. Yeast will multiply until they have sufficient population to tackle the job at hand. If you pitch low, it wil ltake them more time to do so, and again, gives the bad bugs the advantage. For 5 gal bucket pitch one packet of beer yeast.

Use something like US-05. Its very clean fermenting and doesnt add any esters (flavors) of its own.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Jimbo wrote:
NC_redcock wrote:What's the least amount of yeast I can add to a 5 gallon bucket and still get conversion?
"least amount possible" is a bad approach. Yeast will multiply until they have sufficient population to tackle the job at hand. If you pitch low, it wil ltake them more time to do so, and again, gives the bad bugs the advantage. For 5 gal bucket pitch one packet of beer yeast.

Use something like US-05. Its very clean fermenting and doesnt add any esters (flavors) of its own.
Thanks Jimbo, appreciate the insight, obviously still learning here.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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I thought I got this recipe off of youtube, but it was actually from this site...I had written it down in a little book ive been keeping.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... it=popcorn

So I guess you were right about the moonshiners show although I haven't seen it yet but I guess that's where this fella gained his popularity. I still appreciate all of the input on this.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by Prairiepiss »

but what research I've done has brought me to the conclusion that it's possible to convert the starches with just malted grains so I figured I would give it a whirl,
This part is right. But the title says fermenting without yeast. Mashing and fermenting are two completely different things. And you can not ferment with out some yeasts where that yeast comes from doesn't really matter. It's still yeast.

What kind of yeast are you using? And if this is your first time mashing an all grain. How do you know what the after taste the yeast will bring? How do you know the yeast causes the after taste? What recipe was you using that have you the after taste?

Youtube has more misinformation on it then good information. It is not the place to be learning the craft. As you can see. It already has you completely cornfused.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Prairiepiss wrote:
but what research I've done has brought me to the conclusion that it's possible to convert the starches with just malted grains so I figured I would give it a whirl,
This part is right. But the title says fermenting without yeast. Mashing and fermenting are two completely different things. And you can not ferment with out some yeasts where that yeast comes from doesn't really matter. It's still yeast.

What kind of yeast are you using? And if this is your first time mashing an all grain. How do you know what the after taste the yeast will bring? How do you know the yeast causes the after taste? What recipe was you using that have you the after taste?

Youtube has more misinformation on it then good information. It is not the place to be learning the craft. As you can see. It already has you completely cornfused.
Prairiepiss, I completely agree about youtube having a bunch of misinformation, Let's face it, we quote Abraham Lincoln on this one, "everything that you read on the internet must be true."

I'm still trying to weed out the good info and bad info. My first mash was based on this recipe but I used red star yeast and no malt because I didn't have any, so it was basically a sugar wash with cornmeal for a little flavor I guess, but I could taste the yeast in the final product. However I did use 4 tablespoons of yeast in a five gallon bucket which was probably a little much after some of the comments. As far as separating what I consider conventional store bought yeast and the wild yeast you find in malted grains, I apologize for that, I haven't heard them referred to as wild yeast until today, so I meant fermenting without the yeast that one would buy in the store.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by Prairiepiss »

If you feel the store bought yeasts give you a flavor. Well they do. It's all part of making whiskey. If you don't like what you get with that yeast. Try a different one. Sounds like you are using baking yeast? You never did say? Try a DADY distiller active dry yeast. Or something like EC-1118.

Are you letting the wash clear good. And racking it off. Before you run it. Or are you trying to pour it out. Or strain it off somehow?. If you don't let it clear. And run it with a bunch of yeast floating in it. You will get more flavor from the yeast.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Prairiepiss wrote:If you feel the store bought yeasts give you a flavor. Well they do. It's all part of making whiskey. If you don't like what you get with that yeast. Try a different one. Sounds like you are using baking yeast? You never did say? Try a DADY distiller active dry yeast. Or something like EC-1118.

Are you letting the wash clear good. And racking it off. Before you run it. Or are you trying to pour it out. Or strain it off somehow?. If you don't let it clear. And run it with a bunch of yeast floating in it. You will get more flavor from the yeast.
Red star is the brand name of the yeast, just one you can get at the grocery store, I live in the country so no home brew stores here. I did let the wash clear good in my opinion but I still am an amateur. I don't know what you mean by racking it off but I let it clear very well, then I run it through a fine mesh cheesecloth, and then a strainer with a finer mesh to pull out all of the solids before putting it through the still. No floating particles left when I'm done.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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"Racking" means siphoning the liquid out of the fermenter without disturbing the trub at the bottom... Pouring stirs the trub back up into the cleared wash... If I even move my fermenters, such as setting on a bench or counter to get it high enough for racking, I let them sit for an extra day or two before racking...
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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rad14701 wrote:"Racking" means siphoning the liquid out of the fermenter without disturbing the trub at the bottom... Pouring stirs the trub back up into the cleared wash... If I even move my fermenters, such as setting on a bench or counter to get it high enough for racking, I let them sit for an extra day or two before racking...
Got it, Thanks rad14071, I use a siphon, just aren't familiar with the terminology.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by Prairiepiss »

All kinds of yeast are available on line.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Update: I made the trek into the big city and got 2 other types of yeast other than the red star I had been using. I wasn't fond of the flavor it left. I got some BSG distillers yeast and Lalvin EC-118, gonna give them a try, Tahnks for all the insight fellas.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Both good yeasts. Assuming the one is DADY. If I remember correct it is. Just remember those two yeasts like very different temps. The DADY will like the higher temps around 80 to 85 f. The EC-1118 will like it closer to 70 f. The EC-1118 is also know to not show much fermentation activity in airlocks. But it chugs along good.

Both should have pretty close to the same flavor profile. Somewhat of a neutral flavor fermenter. Meaning they don't add much flavor.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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NC_redcock wrote: Prairiepiss, I completely agree about youtube having a bunch of misinformation, Let's face it, we quote Abraham Lincoln on this one, "everything that you read on the internet must be true."

I'm still trying to weed out the good info and bad info. My first mash was based on this recipe but I used red star yeast and no malt because I didn't have any, so it was basically a sugar wash with cornmeal for a little flavor I guess, but I could taste the yeast in the final product. However I did use 4 tablespoons of yeast in a five gallon bucket which was probably a little much after some of the comments. As far as separating what I consider conventional store bought yeast and the wild yeast you find in malted grains, I apologize for that, I haven't heard them referred to as wild yeast until today, so I meant fermenting without the yeast that one would buy in the store.
I use a 1/4 cup of bakers yeast per ferment. I never get yeast flavor in my rum
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by NC_redcock »

I'm not gonna say I know what I am talking about as I am still learning, The difference between rum and corn based liquor may have something to do with it, maybe the strong flavors of the dark sugars/molasses??? But that first corn liquor I made, you pop the top of the mason jar and all I can smell is yeast. I can taste it like its in a loaf of bread.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by MitchyBourbon »

Prariepiss wrote:

Using wild yeast is a crap shoot. Depending on where they were collected. You mite het a good healthy strain. Or mite get a crappy one. It may work good. Or it may not at all.

NC_redcock, if you ever decide to ferment with a wild yeast there are ways to avoid the crap shoot.

Easy but somewhat sloppy way:
First make sure any containers you use are sanitized. Boil 1 liter of tap with 1/4 lb sugar or DME and 1/2 teaspoon tomato paste. When cool enough transfer to a 1 liter bottle. Keep refrigerated. When you are ready to capture some wild yeast pour 1 cup of the sugar water into a bowl. Determine the best location to put your bowl. Put it there. The place you pick should be somewhere you think good yeast might be. Maybe next to a field of barely. Place a screen over the bowl to keep bugs out. Check each day for signs of fermention. When you think you got something, transfer the contents plus a cup more of the sugar water into an empty 1 liter bottle with the cap very very loose. Each day add 2 cups more sugar water till used up. Each day shake up to get fresh air into liquid. If you keep air into liquid the yeast won't make alcohol, instead they will make more of themselves. When this is done don't bother tasting it, do give it the smell test. If it smells pleasant then your good to go. You should have enough yeast for 10 gallons.

There are better ways than this but they are even more work than this.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by holeinwalldistl »

So my one question to this is popcorn always said he never threw any yeast in just sugar corn water and some wheat germ. I am asuming he left it open to wild yeast?
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by MitchyBourbon »

I can only speculate. Maybe he fermented outside next to a fruit tree. Maybe he relied on the yeast naturally found on grains and tossed a handful of uncooked grain. Maybe after many years of fermenting in the same shed it was full of yeast that would just float into the fermenter. Who knows, not me.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by blanikdog »

Prairiepiss wrote:Moonshiners show strikes again. Or was it YouTube.

Sory but you can not ferment alcohol without yeast. I don't care what you have seen elsewhere. You can not ferment without yeast.

So what you are trying to do is ferment using wild yeast. That is present all around us. So you need to research wild yeast.

Malted grains will not ferment an alcohol. They may have some wild yeast attached to the malt. And that is where the fermentation comes from. But the only thing melting does is creates enzymes needed to convert starches to sugars.

Using wild yeast is a crap shoot. Depending on where they were collected. You mite het a good healthy strain. Or mite get a crappy one. It may work good. Or it may not at all.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Some old timers would throw in some local crabapples or chokecherries, saying the wild yeast on them was a good strain. I've always bought mine or jailbreaked it from a commercial beer.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Ok so call me crazy
I am doing a big batch of corn mash so I did 3, 5 gallon batches planning on pitching my yeast when I finished my 3rd batch.
Today when I went to add my 3rd batch into my ferment bucket I hear something sure enough it's bubbling away.
I quickly added my yeast hopping that what ever got my mash started won't ruin all my work.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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AB-Rad wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 1:18 pm Ok so call me crazy
I am doing a big batch of corn mash so I did 3, 5 gallon batches planning on pitching my yeast when I finished my 3rd batch.
Today when I went to add my 3rd batch into my ferment bucket I hear something sure enough it's bubbling away.
I quickly added my yeast hopping that what ever got my mash started won't ruin all my work.
Help
Do a search for pintoshines double ferment.
You may have created a sour mash without doing generational mashes.
Iv been eager to try it.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

Post by Renhoekk »

Yep as others have said, the only way this will work is with a spontaneous ferment. That means a wild strain of yeast gets into your mash and kicks things off. It can work, but it’s risky because you’ll never know which yeast strain is in there. It may go badly—in that it’s a strain that produces nasty flavours for alcohol. And even if it goes well, it’s difficult to replicate in future batches.

I had a wort spontaneously ferment once that produced a delicious toasted cereal note after distillation. After aging it was even better. The problem is that I can’t replicate it because I don’t know what got in there.
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Re: Fermenting without yeast

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Renhoekk wrote: Sun Mar 19, 2023 2:01 pm The problem is that I can’t replicate it because I don’t know what got in there.
Do you still have roughly the same environment? There’s a chance that whatever wild yeast was living there might still be the same today. Worth a try, at least. That’s a big let of why I want to learn to save and reuse yeast, so that if serendipity strikes, I can be ready to save it and carry on.
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