Home Distiller

Hi,

after a long time lurking the board, reading and mostly learning, i registered to ask you experts some questions for myself.

I like that you all have big main fuses for your houses (I even red 100A+, lucky bastards
My house in Sweden however is not that nice equipped, I only have 3x 16 amp fuses (3 phase 220v/380v, or 235V/XXX if i measure it) and to make matters worse, some of those amps might be in use (in the winter by the 3 phase, heat pump for example, and of course never forget what the wife is doing in the kitchen

To be able to make some nice moonshine (and beer!) without having to wait a long time or have to do it every week, I want to make a new kettle. The kettle I’ll order soon will be 80L (21 gal) stainless steel "thermoport".

To be able to heat this in a timely fashion (I need 1 degree C a minute for making beer) I need 6KW+ heating (a little more without good isolation). I want to use all 3 phases together for that. But to avoid problems i want to be able to adjust the total power when needed (and to avoid the start up/cold amp spike with certain heaters?), and to make it even more complicated I want to be able to use a pid controller.

I want to install 3 3KW heaters in the kettle, i found these two on eBay:
1: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Boiler-He ... 0959514644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-220V-3KW-Wat ... 1017804385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Q: which one is better? I think option 1 has a lower total density than option 2, which might avoid scorching. I also think option 1 has more heat a the start part, which would better divide the heat in the kettle (the 3 heat elements will be places 120 degree difference to each other)
Q: anybody know what kind of material the "gold" part is? (eg safe for moonshining?)

I found that to be able to adjust the total power used I can use a Solid State Voltage regulator (3x) like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-24-380V-AC- ... 1225075096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Q: one potentiometer for 3 ssvr's, should it be wired parallel or serial, will there be any problems due to the ssvr's being on different phases?

Q: i noticed that there are ssvr's that go to 480V maximum, is it possible to use 3 ssvr's on a 9KW 3phase 6P 3tube heat element wired in a Delta? Like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-380V-9000W-6 ... 1436862340" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Q: will the pid controller have any problems with switching 3 solid state relays that are on different phases?
Q: should the pid controller wired serial of parallel to the 3 ssr's

Q: aren't there pid controllers (or some other easy way) that use resistance instead of switching a relay so they can be connected directly to the ssvr, avoiding the relay? (and the extra heat sinks)

Sorry for the many questions, for most I already looked up the answer, so they are just to double check my findings

Sorry if my English is weird, it's not my mother's tongue.

Greets and thanks in advance,

Melt_Down

Curious do you run off a generator?
3 phase 240 to a residential home?? Very very rare, looking on the net even all your 220 appliances are single phase.

Hi Bellybuster,

no i live in Sweden (europe).

Most mains in europe are in transision to 230V (from 220V or 240V) to have it the same everywhere.

Ofcourse the power you get will vary with the distance you are from the base station, so i have 235V here (so i'm close to it)

3 phase is very common here as in most of europe, for things like kitchen stoves, heat pumps, woodsplitters and other bigger stuff.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_elec ... ardisation" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Greets

I see after a bit of research.
each leg is protected by a 16amp fuse.
Considering that your 3kw elements would almost max out any given leg there would be nothing left for the rest of the house?? I'm just guessing how your panel is set up.

interesting!!!
I'm struggling with the same dilemma

As i live in the Netherlands I also was able to get a 3 phase connection in my house.

and if I were you, I would go for a Triangle/Delta configuration @ 400 volts.
@ 400 volts you only have 5 amp's per phase with a 6kw (tripple)element.

If you go phase to phase that should be 415 vac and @ 8 amps per circuit would give you a little over 3 Kw per heater, but like Belly said, that's pretty much the maximum for your house. Might have to run it while the wife is out.
Edit- typing while SW was.

Melt_Down wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:interesting!!!
I'm struggling with the same dilemma

As i live in the Netherlands I also was able to get a 3 phase connection in my house.

and if I were you, I would go for a Triangle/Delta configuration @ 400 volts.
@ 400 volts you only have 5 amp's per phase with a 6kw (tripple)element.

I think 6KW would just not be enough to get 1 degree a minute (depends on the isolation) , also i think with a 3 phase heater i can adjust the power with a sollid state voltage regulator (but that was one of the questions in my post) See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voltage_regulator" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

(dutch: ja in nederland heb je het zelfde probleem )

@all, about being at the maximum of the house, that is where the ssvr's (sollid state voltage regulator's) come into play to lower the wattage which brings a couple of advantages. And i like to be able to make moonshine when she's home, much more fun, and she has to taste/smell as my taste/smell is not that good anymore (smoker)

6kw will for sure give you more than 1 degree per min. Should give you closer to 2 for 20 gallons.

I still think you'd be pushing your panel way past any safe zone.

bellybuster wrote:6kw will for sure give you more than 1 degree per min. Should give you closer to 2 for 20 gallons.

I still think you'd be pushing your panel way past any safe zone.

60l (15.8Gal) 1C/60Sec = 4.17 KW
80l (21.1Gal) 1C/60Sec = 5.58 KW
100l (26.4Gal) 1C/60Sec = 6.98 KW

is what i found

and this is without any loses to the enviroment!

P.S. remember I also want to make beer, with the still, not only moonshine, for beer the temperature is very important, and the price for the parts is about the same

1st off I am not a sparky but I can let the smoke out of stuff real quick. In a water heater element do you have 3 hot wires or 2 like we have in the US?

halfbaked wrote:1st off I am not a sparky but I can let the smoke out of stuff real quick. In a water heater element do you have 3 hot wires or 2 like we have in the US?

depends on what you order, i'm looking at these:
1: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Water-Boiler-He ... 0959514644" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
2: http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC-220V-3KW-Wat ... 1017804385" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

yes, my calcs were off... 6kw will give 1 degree per minute

about safety
why shouldn't it be safe, as long as you only use enough copper (thick wires) and components which can handle it.

the current is what's makes it dangerous (think of a taser high voltage and extreme low current)
If you use 400 volts, the current load on your wires will be less then when you use 230 volts.

for example, a single phase 230v 3000 watt element will use 13 amps on 1 wire.
the 6000w 3-phase element (3x 2kw) uses only 5 amps on each phase, which I think is safer.
Ofcourse NEVER underestimate the dangers of 400 volts!!!!!!
Isolate your wires very good!!!!
But the load will be less on your equipment.

in my case I will be testing the following components soon (I have to make a 3-phase group in my house)

My Eurotherm 2704 has a 0-20 mA output
so I use 3 of these relays.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-Curr ... 20d18784ea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (link edited)

And I have this element.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC380V-6000W-St ... 4857a93754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety
why shouldn't it be safe, as long as you only use enough copper (thick wires) and components which can handle it.

6kw on 3 - 16 amp breakers (3phase) when the entire house needs power as well on the same circuits is not safe in my book.

bellybuster wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety
why shouldn't it be safe, as long as you only use enough copper (thick wires) and components which can handle it.

6kw on 3 - 16 amp breakers (3phase) when the entire house needs power as well on the same circuits is not safe in my book.

5 amps on each 16 amp breaker is quit safe i think.

5 amps if using 400 volts, he's using 235 volts (over 8amps per leg). thats greater than 50% of the entire power for the whole house. Different strokes for different folks but i wouldn't be doing it.

bellybuster wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety
why shouldn't it be safe, as long as you only use enough copper (thick wires) and components which can handle it.

6kw on 3 - 16 amp breakers (3phase) when the entire house needs power as well on the same circuits is not safe in my book.

This why i want to be able to lower the wattage when needed, i can see how much is used in the house

6KW (2x3Kw) on 3 phase will use 6000W / 3phase / 230V = 8.7A per phase, even lower when its a real 3 phase heater

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety

in my case I will be testing the following components soon (I have to make a 3-phase group in my house)

My Eurotherm 2704 has a 0-20 mA output
so I use 3 of these relays.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-Curr ... 20d1876f9c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

And I have this element.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC380V-6000W-St ... 4857a93754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How do you wire this? and will that work? (one of my questions from my start post)

Btw the relays are rated 280V you will have 400V between the legs, better get a 480V rated relay to test

Melt_Down wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety

in my case I will be testing the following components soon (I have to make a 3-phase group in my house)

My Eurotherm 2704 has a 0-20 mA output
so I use 3 of these relays.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-Curr ... 20d18784ea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (link edited)

And I have this element.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC380V-6000W-St ... 4857a93754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How do you wire this? and will that work? (one of my questions from my start post)

Btw the relays are rated 280V you will have 400V between the legs, better get a 480V rated relay to test

oh yeah . . . my mistake
I have the 480v relays

i will edit the link.

sw_reijnders wrote:

Melt_Down wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety

in my case I will be testing the following components soon (I have to make a 3-phase group in my house)

My Eurotherm 2704 has a 0-20 mA output
so I use 3 of these relays.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-Curr ... 20d18784ea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (link edited)

And I have this element.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC380V-6000W-St ... 4857a93754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How do you wire this? and will that work? (one of my questions from my start post)

Misred, thought it was a voltage regulator, i can see this work

Melt_Down wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:

Melt_Down wrote:

sw_reijnders wrote:about safety

in my case I will be testing the following components soon (I have to make a 3-phase group in my house)

My Eurotherm 2704 has a 0-20 mA output
so I use 3 of these relays.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pc-KYOTTO-Curr ... 20d18784ea" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow (link edited)

And I have this element.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/AC380V-6000W-St ... 4857a93754" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

How do you wire this? and will that work? (one of my questions from my start post)

Misred, thought it was a voltage regulator, i can see this work

yep, 3 mA-controlled relays in series

Melt_Down wrote:
Q: which one is better? I think option 1 has a lower total density than option 2, which might avoid scorching. I also think option 1 has more heat a the start part, which would better divide the heat in the kettle (the 3 heat elements will be places 120 degree difference to each other)

As it was already recommended - use 3 phases 380V element. It will left more power available fore the rest of your house.

I found that to be able to adjust the total power used I can use a Solid State Voltage regulator (3x) like this one:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/25A-24-380V-AC- ... 1225075096" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
Q: one potentiometer for 3 ssvr's, should it be wired parallel or serial, will there be any problems due to the ssvr's being on different phases?

Yes you can use 3 SSVRs for 3 phase element, but you can't use one pot for 3 SSVRs . You can use triple pot like this one - http://www.ebay.com/itm/2W-220K-ohm-4-T ... 0753176894" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . For 350V you'll need 1MOhm pots.

Q: will the pid controller have any problems with switching 3 solid state relays that are on different phases?
Q: should the pid controller wired serial of parallel to the 3 ssr's

Yes you can use 3 SSR controlled by one PID, They can be connected either in series or parallel depending on PID control output voltage and amperage.
But it's better to use 3 phase SSR like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Three-Phase-3Ph ... 0844907930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

sambedded wrote:

Q: will the pid controller have any problems with switching 3 solid state relays that are on different phases?
Q: should the pid controller wired serial of parallel to the 3 ssr's

Yes you can use 3 SSR controlled by one PID, They can be connected either in series or parallel depending on PID control output voltage and amperage.
But it's better to use 3 phase SSR like this one http://www.ebay.com/itm/Three-Phase-3Ph ... 0844907930" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I agree
in my case, I need a mA input on the relay.
so I found this one

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Power-IO-DMA3-6 ... 2a316998a4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

only problem is . . . it's 150 dollars without shipment costs and customs to europe
which is also 60 dollars