Home Distiller

In my current build, I feel like I have LM theory and operation down pretty good. VM is another matter. There are SO many configurations, and quite a few first run horror stories, where no vapor seemed to travel to the collection condenser, or too much condensate was trapped behind the valve.

My tentative plan: A section of 2" Cu pipe with tri-clamp ferrules top and bottom for attachment to the column and the reflux condenser. A 2" stub pipe and 2" elbow will be soldered to that, fairly tight to the column, pointing down.

Now comes the valve. Pricing 1" stainless gate valves, plus copper adapters to fit, brings them right up price-wise to tri-clamp valves. These come as butterfly and ball valves... never seen a tri-clamp gate valve on eBay.

So the 2" down pipe encounters a 2" sanitary ball valve, which in turn feeds my 2" shotgun condenser. The whole thing remains 2" through. Is there anything wrong with this? Quite a few builds have the vapor path neck down to 1" or less... is that a requirement, or is it done primarily to A) save $$ and/or B) feed a smaller condenser like a liebig?

Many thanks, cheers!

I did 1" to save cash and didn't use a shotgun on my VM just a normal liebig. A shot gun might be over kill but who cares. I think it might change your reflux ratio some but you'd be able to adjust that through the valve anyway.

Thanks max. Without further input, or unless I can find through research that my proposed setup would not work well, I'm going to transition a 2" down tube to a 1.5" or maybe a 1.25" sanitary (tri-clamp) ball valve, then expand back to 2" for my product shotgun.

Or... may stay with 2". Heck, I don't know. If I need velocity or turbulence with vapor anywhere in the system, all I'd need to do is install a choke plate somewhere in one of the tri-clamp junctions. Those sanitary clamp connections are very handy.

Hey BigSwede, have you looked at the valveless moveable coil VM design?? Sure would simplify the build

Condensor-controlled (movable coil) is a nice design. I had a 1" gate valve and ended up sending it back because it seemed more elegant.

But in reality, I end up taking out the reflux section and coil and pot stilling 9 out of ten batches! Whiskey > Vodka

If you do use a valve, put it up by the column. Having it after the bend is how you get those big pools of distillate smearing.

Thanks for the inputs. I know this has been beat to death - valves, where at? How big, how small? - but it seems like the question hasn't been firmly answered. They all seem to work, to a greater or lesser degree.

I have huge respect for Dad's valveless design, it's a brilliant concept that probably works better than the others, simpler and cheaper, but I'm into complex and fiddly, for now at least. Similar to the noob who has 4 thermometers in a stove top pot still. And I have three condensers, and I don't want to wind another.

My goal is eventually to create a flute hybrid; I'm big into rum and whiskey, but I need to walk before running. Once I have this VM portion done, I can actually start basic reflux stillin'.

If you do use a valve, put it up by the column. Having it after the bend is how you get those big pools of distillate smearing

THIS - I have read so many different things about placement, and instinct says to have it horizontal and as close to the column as possible, but other threads say no, put it in the down tube.

Edit - forgot to ask, are butterfly valves not suitable for VM? The one I am considering from St. Pats has 12 "click" positions from closed to open. I like butterfly valves because they are nice and compact.

BigSwede wrote:My goal is eventually to create a flute hybrid; I'm big into rum and whiskey, but I need to walk before running. Once I have this VM portion done, I can actually start basic reflux stillin'.

I think you may have walking, speedwalking, skipping, and horsey-galloping covered with your current design

FWIW - I would put the valve on the horizontal - and get as close to the vertical as possible so that any pooling runs back into your column. If you put it on the vertical - why have a valve at all? Distillate can pool and will run out as soon as you open. You're not forcing it to reflux. As for size, as close to the area of open pipe in your shotgun as you are willing to spend (given the price of valves seems to go up exponentially with radius of pipe). I know everyone says to use a gate valve, but if this is one of three designs and you actually plan to go with the 4th in the long run... I'd say get a ball valve.

TY Bob, yeah as long as I fabricate, I don't have to fail miserably with actual distillation, which is what it's all about! Distillation, not failure. I'm going to keep it all 2" to match my product shotgun... by the time I add adapters into it for a smaller valve, I'm at the price of a 2" valve.

How about a configuration that guarantees that the amount of vapour that you want travels down the VM take off - does not require a SS valve or adapters, is guaranteed to work and is so, so cheap?

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=40063

YHB wrote:How about a configuration that guarantees that the amount of vapour that you want travels down the VM take off - does not require a SS valve or adapters, is guaranteed to work and is so, so cheap?

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=40063

YES!! Thank you. I knew I had seen your work there browsing the forum weeks ago, but couldn't remember who did it. I think the concept is brilliant, and it satisfies my lust for fiddly adjustable bling. I hope you don't mind if I copy elements/portions of it, maybe the entire thing? I think it is compact and elegant in both form and function.

Say yes, pretty please?

I put the post up so that people could share, help yourself to what ever bits you want.

If you need any more detail just ask, or PM me.

Here is a link to another splitting head, by Lester, His Mark 2 version at the end of the thread has a couple of advantages, one it saves height but even better is that it does away with having to make those D shaped pieces down inside the tube, I enjoyed making them but there again I once made a ship in a bottle for fun.

http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 3&start=60

Good Luck

Brian

Thanks to Brian's build, I have been brainstorming this thing all morning. The idea of a slide valve is intriguing.

What we want is a 3-way valve, and not just any 3-way, we want a mixing valve. Most 3-way ball valves and similar are selector, rather than mixing valves.

Let's say you have a vapor source, and you have two pipes, A and B, to accept the vapor. With a non-mixing valve, you get either 100% to A, or 100% to B. What we want is the ability to route the vapor to both destinations in varying percentages, with "A" being a reflux condenser, and "B" being a collection condenser.

If we close off the reflux condenser, we get a pot still. If we close off the product condenser, we get 100% reflux, exactly as YHB described his setup. Somewhere in-between, we get VM. And if you have a LM portion in there, you can execute LM as well, as Brian did, and which I like. Easy enough to close off the needle valve if you want to, but otherwise, yank the nasty fores off.

Did some modeling. If you take a 2" pipe and bevel it exactly 45 degrees, you get a hemisphere on that end when viewed from above:
Ignore for the moment the oddly shaped slide valve in the above pic. Slide that valve into the body, and when viewed from above, you have a giant gate valve. Seals, gaskets not required or needed. If a couple % vapor leaks past the valve, the reflux condenser takes care of it. And no way to boom - the vapor goes into two open condenser circuits. I'd add a stainless steel guide pin in a slot in the slide valve to prevent rotation.
The body of the valve is where it gets tricky from a fabrication POV. To get a nice sliding fit requires telescoping tubing, and all we have is couplers for 2". The body here is tentatively two ea. 2" couplers, one mounted between a pair of ferrules, the other 90 degrees, soldered into a nice hole bored exactly 1/2 way through the upright portion. The 2" slide valve goes right in. Obviously you have 2" pipe (street ell) turning 90 degrees from the stub in the pics, leading into a product condenser.

From there, it is a matter (as YHB did) to add control to the valve... a threaded Cu bushing soldered dead center on the non-bevel end (using 4 very small Cu tubes as a "spider web" support); a lead-free brass compression fitting would make a nice ferrule for the SS threaded rod on the left side of the upright, packed with PTFE cord. Handle on the rod would be phenolic for heat.

The reflux might have a funky path past the partially closed slide valve, so I'd maybe add a centering ring below the valve, 1" or 1.25" hole in the middle. That would center the reflux and also add velocity and turbulence to the vapors.

What you'd have is a system that (again, thanks to YHB's design) can do it all. Pot, LM, VM.

Edit: Just had a thought... While modeling, I was running into serious issues because the 2" couplers that formed the valve tee were too short. We can make use of the funky plumbing pipe dimensions by ordering stainless tubing for a slide valve. Since type M copper has a 2.009" inner diameter, then 2.000" stainless tube would be perfect. The valve body and tee can be regular 2" copper. It'll make soldering a little more challenging, but with the right flux and technique, it's easy.

Hey Big Swede, once again you amaze me at the amount of thought and detail you put in to this hobby. have you fired up that lm you built yet?

Stop giving me credit - it's your build now

I regularly make sliding fits for 2" copper.

Split a piece of copper along its length,with a standard hacksaw I can split up to an 11" long piece of tube.

Cut a strip off the seam and re-profile the tube using jubilee hose clips.

Solder with the clips in place, l leave it a tight fit, and after a couple of licks with the file its lovely sliding fit.

Here is a link to an example, check the second post.

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 17&t=32201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Forget KISS - Keep It Cheap

YHB wrote:
Here is a link to an example, check the second post.

http://ww.homedistiller.org/forum/viewt ... 17&t=32201" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Forget KISS - Keep It Cheap

Oooh nice. Once again, I fell into the trap of "It (2" OD 304 stainless) is available commercially. Buy some on the internet." I placed an order last night. It wasn't expensive, but I may try it both ways, we'll see. Got to get a good 45 degree bevel to make the correct profile, and that can be challenging with thin-walled tube.

The nice thing about stainless - I can TIG weld if needed. We'll see what it looks like.

have you fired up that lm you built yet?

TY firewater, not yet. My daughter is a chemical engineering major, and I promised her I'd wait for the summer so we can do it together. She'll bring more knowledge to our table in her pinky than I have in my head! Pretty cool that a kid is interested in this stuff from a scientific POV. And she is discreet.

If/when the build begins, I'll put some pics up in the Construction section. Thanks for all the inputs, guys and cheers!

Swede - you are reminding me of the guy on the pizza oven forum (where I spend some of my time) who built the world's most beautiful oven but never lights it! Fire up a practice run or two!

FYI, I've started sourcing some parts for my flute build. Very excited about that. I haven't even finished the boiler and I'm already starting the next thing. I am thinking 4" copper flute with modular sections; 2" sight glasses; Perforated plates; 6" long dephlag; and a 16" x 2" shotgun condensor. I ordered a 2" stainless 180 from SD to join it all together at the top.

but enough mucking up your thread. I'll start my own when I get the 4" in my hands.

Bob Loblaw wrote:Swede - you are reminding me of the guy on the pizza oven forum (where I spend some of my time) who built the world's most beautiful oven but never lights it! Fire up a practice run or two!

FYI, I've started sourcing some parts for my flute build. Very excited about that. I haven't even finished the boiler and I'm already starting the next thing. I am thinking 4" copper flute with modular sections; 2" sight glasses; Perforated plates; 6" long dephlag; and a 16" x 2" shotgun condensor. I ordered a 2" stainless 180 from SD to join it all together at the top.

but enough mucking up your thread. I'll start my own when I get the 4" in my hands.

Believe it or not, every project I've ever started, I've finished and made it "go", whatever it is. I've built steam engines, reciprocating gasoline engines, even a couple of gas turbines, and they all run. But construction... I love waking up and thinking on how to tackle something in a fabrication. It really keeps me jazzed and focused. Other guys have golf and the like, metal work is my fun.

I love flutes. They are art and function in one package. And of course, the prettier the still, the better the beverage! I've got to get some real experience before I think about flutes, but it's there in the future, somewhere. Something to look forward to.

I absolutely believe you will finish it. It was just teasing about all that beautiful work sitting on the shelf for the moment. Your craftsmanship is inspiring!

I had a "What an idiot" moment while working on my version of this design. The slide valve I made looks OK, got the hemisphere thing on the end, but I made a very glaring error... as it is in those pictures, it is never more than a VM because the vapors always have a path to the collection condenser through the slide valve. Duh.

So I sat and pondered a while. I have a supplier for 304 stainless 2" hemispheres that presents all sorts of opportunities to create interesting valves and vapor paths inside a 2" Cu tube, but in the end, I was unable to figure out a way to do it that did not involve what ultimately is a TEE at the valve body.

Gave up and modeled this, and I think this is going to be it. I've got materials on the way to make it happen.
Basic valve body is a single 2" coupler into two bored out copper ferrules. I used a coupler because I've got to bore it completely through for a regular 2" Cu pipe, and being a coupler, it has the "meat" to remain in one piece. A section of 2" runs right through it, and is capped with a 2" cap trimmed short for neatness. On the end of the cap is a riveted doubler and a modified brass (Pb free) compression fitting which will carry the adjusting shaft.

The valve is either 2" stainless or copper, closed on one end. The closed end will carry the adjusting shaft threads.
Valve engaged to the shaft, and turned clockwise, will close the valve and divert vapors to the collection condenser.
I found a local supplier of copper, good prices, and I picked up a long sweep 90 ELL fitting which will take the vapors downward to the condenser. And obviously the shaft will take a phenolic handle for adjustment.

So this should be it... looking forward to construction. The tricky part will be ensuring everything is squared up during soldering, and the valve is free to move.

BigSwede wrote: The tricky part will be ensuring everything is squared up during soldering, and the valve is free to move.

I found that by maintaining the cross tube as a continuous piece this was not an issue. I made the cross tube and diverter first, then fitted both into the column.

It looks as though the diverter will be free to rotate in the cross tube, I did not think that this would be desirable, so to prevent this from happening, I offset the push / pull rod so that it was not central. You may want to give this some consideration.

YHB wrote:It looks as though the diverter will be free to rotate in the cross tube, I did not think that this would be desirable, so to prevent this from happening, I offset the push / pull rod so that it was not central. You may want to give this some consideration.

That's a clever way to solve that problem. Wish I had thought of it. I tend to go for the more complicated solution.

I'm using a pair of 1/8" stainless rods as guides... they work well, the head is almost done and ready to solder. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 17&t=48882

I'm gathering the parts for a VM still, and would like to know anybody's thoughts on the merits of this valve.... it says it stainless, lead free, with teflon seals and seats. Is 3/4 inch big enough? Would appreciate any feedback... TIA.

http://www.discovervalve.com/102625.htm ... gLY1vD_BwE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Even though no posts on this thread for a while, I figured this was the thread that was most on topic...

FL Brewer wrote:I'm gathering the parts for a VM still, and would like to know anybody's thoughts on the merits of this valve.... it says it stainless, lead free, with teflon seals and seats. Is 3/4 inch big enough? Would appreciate any feedback... TIA.

http://www.discovervalve.com/102625.htm ... gLY1vD_BwE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Even though no posts on this thread for a while, I figured this was the thread that was most on topic...

Personally I would not use a ball valve for the VM port. I find a gate valve more usable. With a ball valve, all your resolution (closed to 100% open) is contained in 1/4 of a turn, where a gate valve uses 10 to 12 full turns from closed to full open. It would be hard to find the "slightly open" settings you may want for fractioning with a ball valve.

Gate valves are typically more expensive. Local shops in my are charge $40+ for a 3/4" SS gate valve, while I can get them via Amazon for $20 if I don't mind waiting 4 weeks to ship from China.

Is 3/4" big enough? Good question. It is likely fine, though I made a lot of assumptions with that. In general, if the area of your vapor path in your product condenser is 3/4" or smaller, you will be OK with a 3/4" valve. If you give more details on your build, I could give a better answer. Boiler power, column diameter, product condenser type and vapor area.

Otis - thanks for the reply. I haven't built any of it yet, so I still have flexibility, but I'm looking at a pretty basic VM design, 2" column, 1/2" vapor path through a liebig condenser. I was originally looking at needle valves, but after a few hours of searching and reading on this forum, realized I don't need the fine control that a needle valve gives for a VM. Your advice to use a gate, not ball, valve is very useful. (I got the design from this forum.... somewhere, but I'm using it as a design guide, not exactly as shown). I've done the Amazon search, and I've found some cost effective SS gate valves, but they all have fibre and graphite seats and/or packing. The ones that have only PTFE and SS in the flow path are all much more expensive, $100 or more. If you know of a good SS gate valve, $40 is not unreasonable. I'll nix the ball valve idea and search for a reasonably priced gate valve.

So, 3/4" is good and find a gate, not ball, valve. Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Cheers!

Oh, and BTW, power source is a 200,000 BTU propane burner (obviously, not running anywhere near full power for spirit runs). Boiler is a 15.5 gal SS beer keg for stripping runs, 10 gal milk can for spirit.

.... and another thought.... since I'm running a 1/2" vapor path through the condenser, is 3/4" over kill? It's going to be used for spirit runs, I have a different head for stripping. I was thinking of bigger for mechanical strength as much as anything. The same website that has the link I first sent has a 3/4" gate valve (all SS and PTFE) for $71, which I may just end up buying.

You can get a ss gate valve 1" for $22 from still dragon.

FL Brewer wrote:I haven't built any of it yet, so I still have flexibility, but I'm looking at a pretty basic VM design, 2" column, 1/2" vapor path through a liebig condenser.

Oh, and BTW, power source is a 200,000 BTU propane burner (obviously, not running anywhere near full power for spirit runs). Boiler is a 15.5 gal SS beer keg for stripping runs, 10 gal milk can for spirit.

If the google is correct, 200,000 BTU is something like 58,000 Watts. Damn! You wont be anywhere near that stripping. My guess is you'll have your hands full controlling that dragon. (A guess because I have never run gas)

My previous column with a lot of milage was a 2" VM with a 24" long 1/2" liebig. Boiler was originally a 10 G/1500W electric and later I ran that 2" column with a 24" long 3/4" liebig on a 5500W keg. Do yourself a huge favor now and start with a bigger product condenser. My 24" long 3/4" vapor path liebig maxed out at 3500W while stripping. A shotgun would be sweet, but can be expensive and/or relatively hard to build. If you go liebig, go long too. I would recommend not reducing your vapor path from that of your valve, keep it 3/4", and the water jacket should be at least 36" long. Just my opinion.

And I'm serious; Put that vapor port/valve on the left.

Otis

OK, more time searching, came up with these.

https://www.directmaterial.com/stainles ... gIwHPD_BwE" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

They use 316 stainless, which others on here have said is good, and RPTFE (glass fiber reinforced PTFE) seals and packing. If I end up getting this one, I'll have to figure out how to solder to stainless, another skill to develop....

OK, that BTU to watts conversion has me flummoxed.... I think I'm seeing the same sites you are for that conversion. However, my burner is rated in BTU's, but the BTU to watt conversions are all actually BTU/hour to watts. I need to figure out if the units for my burner really are BTUs or BTUs/hour. BTU are an energy measurement, BTU/hour and watts are power measurements (power x time = energy). Burner rating probably really is a BTU/hr rating, that makes sense.

I was planning on only using that 200,000 BTU burner for stripping runs with a 15.5 gal keg, and my 60,000 BTU burner for spirit runs. They both sure do seem like overkill compared to a 5 KW electric element. It is a lot more efficient to have an internal heading element, especially if the boiler is insulated, so that can explain some of the difference.

On the condenser... I really think 1/2 is enough; I run a CM column now, and I'm really not looking for faster running, I only got he big burner because it was taking 2 hours to bring my stripping run to a boil. I don't think I'll ever be running that burner anywhere near full out when I'm running, even stripping.... would probably scorch the wash. if I did that anyway. I was planning on a 24" liebig, but it's no more work and only a little more cost to make it 36", so I'll probably go with that.

.... and I think I'm missing what you're getting at with saying put the valve on the left.....