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according customer service at the ball, kerr web sight (1 800 240 3340)
the seal on a mason, ball, kerr, is plastisol. plastisol is an emulsion of PVC.
http://www.articlesbase.com/sales-artic ... 42039.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Open a brand new jar and sniff the air inside. Hold, and enjoy...

No other opinions on this?

Mason jars are used a lot and lids have been discussed, some folks have come up with different material to seal their lids as the plastisol has been proven with heat but not prolonged periods under high abv. The good news is that for the most part the lid is not in contact with the alcohol except maybe splashed during transporting.

I've been thinking about this subject a bit lately because the other day a took a break from all my other activities and went metal detecting. As usual I didn't find anything valuable but under a tree I found several old style zinc mason jar lids with glass inserts. This made me pause for thought because there is virtually no difference from the mason jars of 100 years ago and today besides the lids. These glass inserts are actually very common and reasonably cheap on eBay and would serve well to both protect and possibly allow the distillate to breath just a slight amount. I suppose one of the concerns is the composition of the glass lid, as we know lead crystal can leech lead into distillate and most of these inserts are milk glass which may have been made using bone ash, tin dioxide, arsenic or antimony but it is my feeling that since these were intended for long term food storage most of them used bone ash. Any thoughts on this would be appreciated.

The other alternative that comes to mind is the old lightning jars with everlasting gaskets instead of the rubber seal. I frequently see lightning jars at thrift stores and don't buy them but have begun thinking about it. After all, I've read somewhere that lightning jars are where the name "white lightning" came from so perhaps that may just be the most appropriate choice. Again any thoughts would be appreciated.

You may be describing something different but most of the glass jar lids I have seen were sealed with a flat rubber gasket. I have heard that wax paper can be used as a barrier between your lid and the sweet goodness in the jar.

I've been using these - http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.a ... &catid=720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The 2.725" size fits a regular mason jar and the 3.5" size fits a large mouth mason jar.

I use these for aging on glass - http://www.widgetco.com/jar-cork-stoppers-standard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The 3.5" (size 48) fits a 1 gallon large mouth pickle jar.

Good post SC!

Those look great, Cackalack, thanks for posting the links. Gonna get some for sure.

S-Cack,

Have you noticed any evaporation loss with the 0.010" disks? Do you use them alone or backed up with the metal lid? I've been using 0.04" and 0.06" disks alone. They seal nice. Better alone than with metal lid as backup. Can shake it up without leakage. I've wanted to check evaporation over time but I sample everything too often to get a feel for what's going on. Anecdotally, flavor seems to intensify over time, indicating some vapor transmission going on.

I also use the same thicknesses as liners for my jug caps.

buflowing wrote:S-Cack,

Have you noticed any evaporation loss with the 0.010" disks? Do you use them alone or backed up with the metal lid? I've been using 0.04" and 0.06" disks alone. They seal nice. Better alone than with metal lid as backup. Can shake it up without leakage. I've wanted to check evaporation over time but I sample everything too often to get a feel for what's going on. Anecdotally, flavor seems to intensify over time, indicating some vapor transmission going on.

I also use the same thicknesses as liners for my jug caps.

I use them with one piece lids, so there's no evaporation loss. I'm kinda thinking that there wouldn't be any loss even with the ring type lids, but it might be worth doing a little experiment. Anyway, I only use them for short term storage in mason jars. Once I start the aging process, my likker is in the 1 gallon pickle jars with a cork jar stopper. I draw off of the aging jar a bottle at a time for drinking.

S-Cackalacky wrote:I've been using these - http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.a ... &catid=720" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The 2.725" size fits a regular mason jar and the 3.5" size fits a large mouth mason jar.

I use these for aging on glass - http://www.widgetco.com/jar-cork-stoppers-standard" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow . The 3.5" (size 48) fits a 1 gallon large mouth pickle jar.

those ptfe disks are a good find.

the link to widgetco however shows their line of laminated corks, 40 through 48 are laminated horizontally 3 layers

50 through 56 are laminated vertically, x layers to achieve diameter.

laminations mean glue of some form, no good.

widgetco may have large diameter corks that are not laminated but be sure of what you buy.

WIski wrote:You may be describing something different but most of the glass jar lids I have seen were sealed with a flat rubber gasket. I have heard that wax paper can be used as a barrier between your lid and the sweet goodness in the jar.

I think you are thinking lightning jar, which looks like this. and could easily be replaced by an everlasting gasket.
The old mason inserts looked like this If you look close you can see the one on the left is still in the zinc lid. Ive never seen them sealed with rubber but sealing with PTFE tape wrapped around the edge might work nicely.
I think S-Cackalacky's idea of PTFE inserts is a good one too.

S-Cack

Perfect idea! I'll be ordering some for myself. I don't have a wood lathe like Corene, with her Oak lids

I'll admit I use regular mason jar lids on occasion. It's a practice soon to be discontinued...

yeah cranky I was thinking of the Lightning jar lid.I'm thinking a everlasting gasket with this setup would have a lot of cool factor.

Having a ton of old lightning jars with no rubber seals, I decided to forego the glass lid and ptfe seal in favor of a white oak lid, turned on my lathe and charred on the bottom side. I have a design that seals without leaking, but I haven't tried any for aging alcohol yet.

I'll post a pic when I can.

I have about twenty of the lightning jars, but I love the idea of an all oak lid. I too am guilty of using a bunch of mason jars. Hell, it doesn't really seem like white dog unless it is out of a mason jar!

Corene1 did some experimenting with oak lids and last I read had problems with elongation due to moisture that could potentially break a jar if they are kept wet so I think the project was abandoned.

cob wrote:according customer service at the ball, kerr web sight (1 800 240 3340)
the seal on a mason, ball, kerr, is plastisol. plastisol is an emulsion of PVC.
http://www.articlesbase.com/sales-artic ... 42039.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I did a little research and plastisol is fine for intermittent contact with high ABV liquid and with prolonged high ABV fumes/vapor, but not with prolonged high ABV liquid. The problem is, when I put my high ABV liquid into one of those Ball mason jars, the next day there were condensed droplets on the lid. Now plastisol isn't going to kill you if it leaches into your product a bit, but I don't want that crap in my hooch. So I cut out some 10-mil aluminum circles to replace the inner part of the two-part lids that come with these canning jars. A little aluminum on the lid isn't going to hurt anything. I tested the modified lids with water and they don't leak.

HPD wrote:

cob wrote:according customer service at the ball, kerr web sight (1 800 240 3340)
the seal on a mason, ball, kerr, is plastisol. plastisol is an emulsion of PVC.
http://www.articlesbase.com/sales-artic ... 42039.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

I did a little research and plastisol is fine for intermittent contact with high ABV liquid and with prolonged high ABV fumes/vapor, but not with prolonged high ABV liquid. The problem is, when I put my high ABV liquid into one of those Ball mason jars, the next day there were condensed droplets on the lid. Now plastisol isn't going to kill you if it leaches into your product a bit, but I don't want that crap in my hooch. So I cut out some 10-mil aluminum circles to replace the inner part of the two-part lids that come with these canning jars. A little aluminum on the lid isn't going to hurt anything. I tested the modified lids with water and they don't leak.

I'll take plastisol over aluminum lids any day!
If I was going to invest the time, I'd use stainless or glass and wrap the edge with ptfe tape to make sure it sealed.
Or use thin white oak rounds and char the bottom side.

Aluminum doesn't make my list of "safe" materials.

This is a great idea. Aluminum foil is dirt cheap, available in almost every home, safe to use in this application, and doesn't raise any red flags like 100#s of sugar might. Hobby win.

I'll take an element that has hard evidence of it being safe when in contact with ethanol, over a synthetic that has been proven to leach chemicals in it... There are other threads on the safety of aluminum where anyone is free to declare they will no be using it. However there is no need to derail this thread with unsubstantiated safety claims.

I said it doesn't make my list of safe materials. Never made any other claim. Everything I stated was plainly expressed as my opinion of what I personally would use.

If you want to use aluminum, go for it. I merely suggested materials I would personally use and recommend as safe.
Safety aside, I don't want to impart any "aluminium can" taste into my spirits. If I can taste the difference between bottled and canned beer and soda, I tend to think it will hold true with spirits.

I don't see alternate suggestions as "derailing the thread".

ShineRunnah wrote:I said it doesn't make my list of safe materials. Never made any other claim. Everything I stated was plainly expressed as my opinion of what I personally would use.

If you want to use aluminum, go for it. I merely suggested materials I would personally use and recommend as safe.
Safety aside, I don't want to impart any "aluminium can" taste into my spirits. If I can taste the difference between bottled and canned beer and soda, I tend to think it will hold true with spirits.

I don't see alternate suggestions as "derailing the thread".

I wouldn't put my hooch in a fully aluminum container either, but we're talking about lids. Aluminum from a lid isn't going to leach much of anything. We put hot alcohol vapor and liquid through copper without a worry. Everything is poison and nothing is poison.

HPD wrote:

ShineRunnah wrote:I said it doesn't make my list of safe materials. Never made any other claim. Everything I stated was plainly expressed as my opinion of what I personally would use.

If you want to use aluminum, go for it. I merely suggested materials I would personally use and recommend as safe.
Safety aside, I don't want to impart any "aluminium can" taste into my spirits. If I can taste the difference between bottled and canned beer and soda, I tend to think it will hold true with spirits.

I don't see alternate suggestions as "derailing the thread".

I wouldn't put my hooch in a fully aluminum container either, but we're talking about lids. Aluminum from a lid isn't going to leach much of anything. We put hot alcohol vapor and liquid through copper without a worry. Everything is poison and nothing is poison.

Good point. There has also been some discussion here on the forums about storing in copper and I think the consensus was that it's not a good idea. Apparently the copper will impart some off flavors if the alcohol is exposed to it over a long period of time. I had thought about using copper roof flashing to cut out lid liners, but abandoned the idea because of the cost.

I agree about the aluminum being used as lid liners. I don't really see much problem with it in that application, but I understand some people's concerns about it. I think the main problem with aluminum is that it will be etched by acidic liquids, such as a wash or backset. An aluminum boiler can be degraded over time and possibly experience catastrophic failure. If you've ever cooked an acidic food in an aluminum pan, you might notice that it imparts a grey color to the food - not good.

I sometimes use heavy duty aluminum foil for lid liners, but as I said before, it's usually for short term storage - cuts or nuke aging. After I do a few nuke cycles, I combine whatever I have into 1 gallon pickle jars for aging. I use cork for my aging jars and liquor bottles. If I gift someone a jar of my likker, I use a PTFE disk.

Anyway, I take precautions, but try not to be too anal about it. Ain't never heerd of nobody dyin' from jar lid poisnin'.

While I haven't done any experiments, I'd be a bit cautious about using aluminum foil on spirit filled jars... Alcohol is a caustic solution and as such could cause oxidation due to the air, which is always present in any jar, mixed with alcohol vapor which has a tendency to evaporate and bead up on the bottom of lids... Those droplets could form oxidation rings around them and that is what you don't want to see... If the droplets fall back into the spirits they could take the oxides with them, or it could simply fall in all by itself... There would also be a gaseous reaction taking place during the oxidation process... The higher the proof of the spirits, the more I would be concerned... I think some experimentation is needed at various proofs...

I'd hate for someone to end up with something like Parkinson's Disease from the use of improper materials... My father, and virtually everyone else that worked in the factory he worked in for 42.5 years, has PD and the only thing they have narrowed the cause down to is aluminum oxide from the grinding wheels being circulated by the old ventilation system... The new ventilation system separates factory sections and utilizes modern day filtration methods...

Food for thought...

rad14701 wrote:While I haven't done any experiments, I'd be a bit cautious about using aluminum foil on spirit filled jars... Alcohol is a caustic solution and as such could cause oxidation due to the air, which is always present in any jar, mixed with alcohol vapor which has a tendency to evaporate and bead up on the bottom of lids... Those droplets could form oxidation rings around them and that is what you don't want to see... If the droplets fall back into the spirits they could take the oxides with them, or it could simply fall in all by itself... There would also be a gaseous reaction taking place during the oxidation process... The higher the proof of the spirits, the more I would be concerned... I think some experimentation is needed at various proofs...

I'd hate for someone to end up with something like Parkinson's Disease from the use of improper materials... My father, and virtually everyone else that worked in the factory he worked in for 42.5 years, has PD and the only thing they have narrowed the cause down to is aluminum oxide from the grinding wheels being circulated by the old ventilation system... The new ventilation system separates factory sections and utilizes modern day filtration methods...

Food for thought...

Rad, I used to work for a DOD contractor making aviation radar. The main material used was aluminum, and we went through truckloads of billet aluminum every week, machining, dip-brazing, welding, sanding and gold iridite anodizing aluminum in massive quantities.

We had quarterly "safety lectures" where they would bring in a consultant that explained the dangers associated with our jobs and proper safety precautions.
After hearing about the toxicity of aluminum and getting a pamphlet on its neurotoxicity and possible links to Alzheimer's and all sorts of other neurological disorders, I try my best to steer clear of the stuff.

Using it in place of safer materials, because its cheaper, easier or whatever the reason, isn't worth the risk to me.

I wont debate if risks associated with aluminum use are "proven" or not. I don't care. I find it easier to avoid it than find out if it is harmful.
You can all do as you please, its your choice. I simply feel better options are available.

Now lets get back to Mason jars.

cranky wrote:Corene1 did some experimenting with oak lids and last I read had problems with elongation due to moisture that could potentially break a jar if they are kept wet so I think the project was abandoned.

Yes , I am guilty as charged. What I have found out is you must cut the pieces and then soak them for a couple of days then let them dry. That will get rid of most of the warping that will take place. After that I toast them at 350 for a few hours then do my shaping. Make the flat sealing area about 3/32 thick or the lid won't have enough thread to screw onto the jar and give it lots of clearance on the inside diameter that will go inside the jar itself. the vapor in and out will re-swell the lid a bunch and it can crack the jar. It has happened once to me. give it at least 1/16 inch clearance and a little more won't hurt a bit. They are great for aging on oak but over time you will lose a lot of spirit though evaporation so probably not the best idea for long term storage. I lost about 5% in 3 months this summer with my jars stored outside in my shed.

Thank you for that rundown Corene. You truly are a distilling goddess.

bearriver wrote: I don't have a wood lathe like Corene, with her Oak lids

you don't need a lathe they can be made with any of these tools. bandsaw, jigsaw, tablesaw, holesaw, or router.

and if you got enough grit a pocket knife. the lathe is just the easiest. watch your fingers

corene1 thanks for the picture.