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Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:25 am
by zirtico
Hey all,

Going to run my first blueberry brandy (and first brandy) this weekend. Can anyone give me advice on cuts? I'm experienced on scotch whisky cuts but have no idea about fruit spirits. What do brandy tails smell/taste like? I'm told that a lot of the apple flavour in apple brandy is in the heads. Is there any such guideline for other fruits (or blueberries)? Any advice is welcome!

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Wed Jul 09, 2014 12:19 pm
by Paulinka
I love to share the little I know, this is how I cut my pálinka.
For (non-geisted) true fruit spirits - like pálinka - and for geisted (fruits macerated in neutral alcohol 10:2) - like schnaps - it all goes pretty much the same way: dilute the low wines to 20%ABV. 20 because at 25 it is difficult to separate properly, at 15 more methils stay trapped.
It will not foam, pot can be filled to 90%.

The first 0.5-2% should be thrown out, it is filled with most of the acetil-aldehide/ethyl-acetate the low wine contains. If one raises the temperature of the pot slowly while making a fruit-brandy the most methyl-alcohol can be driven out. If you hurry, some of it will stay in the hearts and it will not air out, it will stay there.

I switch to the hearts when the spirit start to come at 70%ABV, before that I collect every 100-150ml in separate jars, that have a paper napkin on top of them as cap, held there with an elastic ring. 24h later I dilute a tsp. of them with same amount of water and decide that does it give to or take from the quality of the heart. The sharp smell can disappear from these samples, but it takes time. This was our fruithead.

I collect hearts down to 45%ABV, because I work only from freshly fermented stock that I know and I cook them after a day or two after they are ready. If something is wrong, the hearts can end at 50%. At the first sign of a bitter taste (that is not an alcohol-like bitterness) cut, and start the tails. The part from 45-41 is what I always throw out, it is a lazy, featureless, sluggish part in most of the fruit brandy distillates. Don't ask me why, but my pálinka is much more crisp, lively and has a more pronounced loud taste when I drop that section.

From 40%ABV, collect to 100ml jars again, around 32%ABV usually there is a very aromatic slice, but it is backed by a little bitter unusable part from below, and this is where I use to stop distilling, at 30-20%.

As for the numbers: today I distilled 15L low wines of black cherry. In my black cherry pálinka the traits are the "high" cherry aromas, and only a very little balancing "deep" marmelade honey taste. Cherry is generally a delicate fruit that needs a refined approach in distilling, and it can be achieved with raising the pot's temperature very slowly and a cold, cold worm.
Preshot was 50ml, then I collected 6x100ml heads, took about 3800ml heart (65%ABV), and finished with 2x100ml tail.
It took nearly 6 hours, about 4 drops / sec. Yes, plum and apricot is made much, much faster with very good results.

So, my two cents in a nutshell: collect those heads, air them out, some of them are the golden ticket in blending "high"-aromatic fruits like apple and bb. Drop the lazy part out and spice the blend with a selected little non-bitter jammy part of a tail.

Good luck!

Edit: after blending, pour the spirit in a clean bucket and dilute with the cleanest spring water (or distilled water) you can find, and let the water down on the side of the bucket in a very thin stream. If you hurry the brandy can become misty, and it can take (stressful) weeks to become clear. My red cherry (which is a sharper, crispier tasting spirit compared to the bc, it also has a marzipan aftertaste because of seeds) and my black cherry pálinka is 45%ABV, strong enough for a nice sensation and light enough that the fruits kick in full strength. This is the strength I truly recommend for fruit brandies, except for geisted raspberry, it is better at 42%.

All fruit brandies must age a few months, after six months their taste will be harmonized. As for pálinka, a few piece of fruit inside the glass can enhance the "wow" factor, especially ladies like it, we call it "ágyas pálinka" (means: emBEDded, "ágy" means bed, but "ágyas" also means concubine).
Blending the pálinka with a little honey, it can be called "mézes pálinka".
Only the close-to-neutral smelling pálinka (like mulberry or elderberry) use to be aged in barrels made from robinia-, mulberry or fruittree pálinka-barrels, and only to acquire a mild colour and a very light wood-taste. No serious oak-aging is usual, even less traditional.

Mulberry-trees are still near every horse-stable (or/and piggery/hennery) in farms around these parts (the Alföld) because it is believed to deter horseflies. Often one can find a smithy in the close area of a mulberry tree, it is very annoying to fight with flies while you hold a red-hot piece of iron in one and a heavy hammer in the other hand. :) This is a useful tip, you will know where to find a blacksmith when your horse kicks off its shoe, as mulberry trees are huge and high and our lowland is flat. Many years ago mulberry-leaves also were collected and given to feed silkworms, and the silk been trade for import goods. When the fruits just start to ripe be sure to bring a net under the tree and collect the ripe fruit, as overripe mulberry does not have a pleasant smell (to say the least), and it attracts flies badly. :D

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 6:19 am
by heartcut
Nice writeup, Paulinka. Thanks.

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Thu Jul 10, 2014 8:26 am
by zirtico
Thanks for that Paulinka. One question; how do you feel about a single-distilled brandy? If I get a 40% ABV single-distilled spirit, I'm assuming it would really have a great blueberry flavour. Or do you think it might have too much flavour? I even considered 2 runs on 2/3 of the batch and doing just a single run on the other 1/3 and then mixing the two. Never done a brandy so I'm not sure how neutral the 1st/2nd runs are. I like the "cleanness" of a double-distilled spirit but if it comes at the expense of too much flavour then I may prefer single. We'll see how it goes.

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 1:04 am
by Paulinka
Yes, with a thumper or a plated tower it is possible, but it is not nearly as tasty as double potstilled. Do not attempt to drink a single potstilled fruit brandy, it has way too much methylalcohol trapped inside, and the fusel oils with other impurities can give a bad diarrhea, not to mention that it is not a clean but a cloudy pre-spirit with a blueish hue, no matter how strong it is. Believe me, by the look and the smell of it you don't want to drink it. :)

When potstilling low wines start to drop at 55%ABV, with very good cooling and high-alcohol fruitmash can be even start at as high as 70%. Still it is definitely not consumable in this form yet, and must be diluted down to 20% with water before distillation (usually the low wines are around 30%ABV as a batch). Flavours will not disappear or become light by distillation of the low wines, quite the opposite, distillation separates the bad esthers and oils from the good ones, also it is the time to cut out the nasty aldehydes, acetates and with careful slow boiling most of the methyls.

What gives a lot of loss in taste and aroma is sugar, and I continue to wonder how much sugar the people put in their fruit mashes on this board. Use no sugar or an absolute max. 3% by weight of the fruit. I mixed 1kg sugar (in syrup, of course) for 120kg cherry and no sugar in another 50kg batch, and the one without sugar (and seeds) is much more flavorful. A little sugar (1-2%) however can help to bring out seed-aromas in brandies if we wish to have those, like in cherry or apricot. But even then do it only when you have like an overly perfumey variety of an apricot that can deal with a bit of tune-down on scent.

Proper use of sugar for fruitbrandies is to make a triple-distilled sugarhead, macerate 100kg of (low-sugar or expensive) crushed fruit in 20litre of 80%ABV that you made from sugar, try to ferment out the remaining fruit's sugars by diluting the macerate with water so your yeast can survive, after ferment is done press the juice out with a grape-press, cook out the low wines from it, then distill. This is how our expensive raspberry-brandy* is made (>$200USD/L, 40%ABV). Even better if you use grape-brandy instead of sugarhead, but that smoother taste comes with an even higher pricetag.
(*brandies made with this method cannot be called "pálinka" as pálinka can only be made from the same fruit's ferment that they are named, and even my 120:1 cherry could not enter the market, there is a strict zero tolerance on gluco-alcohol in pálinka, only alcohol made from fructose is allowed. This is the story why no real raspberry-pálinka exists, no matter how it is called. :) )

Also, here I wrote about how the original Transylvanian Blueberry Pálinka is made properly, in short, 1. mash = fruits macerated in neutral alcohol AND fermented with yeast, 2. cooking the low wines from it 3. distillation of the low wines. http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 38&t=49815

I wish you the best, be safe!

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2014 11:13 am
by zirtico
Agreed. Whisky low wines are not palatable at all and I wouldn't be surprised if brandy low wines weren't either. I'll go with the double pot-stilling then.

Isn't the quantity of berries per volume of wine that really determines how much flavour your end product will have? I used a LOT of berries and aimed for a 9-10% ABV for the wine with the sugar so as to have some amount of alcohol while keeping the berry flavour very strong. Since cherries are rather high in sugar, I would assume that you could get away with not adding much sugar but 15 lbs of blueberries in 5 gallons of liquid would only yield a 2.5% ABV without added sugar.

Using my current pot-still setup, triple distilling sugarhead to get neutral spirit is way too time consuming and besides that, I really wanted to just distill the fruit wine itself rather than macerate neutral and then distill.

After a couple distillations, I'm hoping I get a clean, smooth eau-de-vie that I can enjoy unadulterated without any oaking.

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Tue Dec 30, 2014 4:18 pm
by wtfdskin
Great info paulinka. Ive just finished airing out my first ever apple brandy run. Pot stilled what I thought was slow. Fast drip to a steady thin stream. Ive been reading forever and just now found this post. (Search on tapatalk not so good)
I grow my own apples do my own pressing and involved in the process from the start. No sugar added to my ferment. Juice only. I have been debating on double running my brandy (no thumper yet) your one paragraph made my mind up for me. I did notice a slight oily film and odor In a few jars and some slight cloudiness In the last few jars appeared after airing for 48 hours.
Thank you. Any other advice for a novice brandy distiller?

Re: Brandy cuts - advice required

Posted: Wed Dec 31, 2014 2:56 am
by Paulinka
Hi wtfdskin, just wipe the oil from the top with a piece of blotting paper or tissue. Cloudiness happens when the spirit is diluted to drinking strength (I prefer 45% alc.), especially if the water is poured in fast. It will not get cloudy if it is dripped very slowly. However, as this haze is not made up from the same kind of "cold" oils like we have in absinthe or gin, it will fade away by time and the spirit will be clear when the brandy is properly aged, which is at least 6 months.

Please visit my topic, I believe you will find some interesting read there: http://homedistiller.org/forum/viewtopi ... 38&t=48526

And I wish a very Happy New Year for All! Cheers!