Trying muscadines again...

[stevenun]

Coming from a wine background I've tried muscadine brandy once, the wrong way.
Previously:
I made wine with added sugar to increase the alcohol to around 12%, and added sulphites as per the winemaking recipe. Later when I didn't like the wine I uncorked it, poured into the still and ran it. Not much of the grape flavor came through.

So, faced with a freezer full of grapes I decided to try again. I picked five gallons of grapes last year, and some were still in there, and I picked four gallons this year. I froze the grapes until ready to use, thawed them out and crushed. I added a little spring water to the grapes when crushing, and a lot of seeds floated to the top and were discarded.

Without adding any sugar, I'm at 6% potential alcohol on my hydrometer. I added pectic enzyme before the crush, and then some yeast. It started bubbling within a few hours, and is going well now. Punching down the cap twice a day. I'll pull it off the skins in a few days and let it keep going.

A question: In a few days should I put it in a carboy with an air lock like I usually do, and let it do a secondary for a month or two like wine, or should I just let it run as a primary for a week and then run it?

[S-Cackalacky]

There would seem to be some benefit to maturation of fruit ferments. Jimbo writes about it in some of his posts about apple brandy. Ga Flatwoods does some Muscadine ferments. Maybe one of those guys will jump in with some advice.

You might be taking a risk of infecting your ferment by futzing around with it too much. Some of the things you might do in wine making aren't usually necessary if you intend to distill it.

Good luck with it.

[stevenun]

Thanks.. I'll do a search. Muscadines seem so easy but I keep messing up fruits. I've done a pretty decent sugar run, and some scotch that I really was pretty proud of, but these damn grapes I'm seem to take issues with.

[ga flatwoods]

Master Distiller
 Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:40 pm
 1948
 SE GA Flatwoods

Brezzibree823 must've gotten lost in all the grappa discussion when all that was asked for was a grape recipe. I too agree that grapes are a waste used for a neutral and would not bother if that is all I wanted. They can however be made into some good brandy, if you have the right grapes that is. Are there other grapes used for brandy outside of the South USA other than muscodine? Unthinkable! Just kidding. All my fruit recipes use 6lb fruit,, 2 lb sugar, and 3 qts water all per gallon proposed wine. Grapes I seperate from hulls via a 2"x6"x2ft box with a 2"x4"x19" inside the 2x6x2 secured against the bottom leaving the 2x4 suppressed inside. 1/2" hardware cloth is secured 19" square to the 2x4 and battened down with a 1-1/2" strip on top the 2x4to match the top of the 2x6 flush. This box is then placed over a barrel and the grapes placed about one inch deep and crushed with something similar to a bacon press or other heavy flat object that catches the grapes in the squares of the cloth and seperates the pith from the hull without crushing the seed. Flip it over and tap the cloth and the pith falls freely into the barrel off of the screen. Turn it back over and repeat until done. A five gallon bucket takes five minutes!  I generally dont give such secrets away but you guys share nice with me  . Now add your 3qts per gsllon with the exception of waht you use to make sucrose for your sugar regiment and then add it. The extra water not used for sucrose should be enough to cool for yeast pitching. DO NOT USE BREAD YEAST  I can taste it immediately in wine and dont like it . Use montrachet if you can get it. Now ferment for a week and pull the wash from the pulp. Distill the wash in a pot still, or reflux in pot still mode. Use the hulls for a second wine run if so inclined. The second will be a lighter consistence and make a more subtle brandy probably closer to your neutral you were wanting.
Pears make very delightful drink. Use the same recipe 6, 2, 3 but cut up and boil the pears, strain and use only the juice. Damn pear juice smells good, makes me want some vanilla ice cream for grandma's cobbler!  
Hope this helps.


_________________

[NZChris]

I don't have a lactic starter, so I distill as soon as the primary ferment is over. I figure the less I mess with it, the less the chance of stuffing it up.

Look at the Cognac method for some ideas.

Last year, I put the backset in with the pressings for the best grappa I've ever made.

[Jimbo]

There would seem to be some benefit to maturation of fruit ferments. Jimbo writes about it in some of his posts about apple brandy. Ga Flatwoods does some Muscadine ferments. Maybe one of those guys will jump in with some advice.

You might be taking a risk of infecting your ferment by futzing around with it too much. Some of the things you might do in wine making aren't usually necessary if you intend to distill it.

Good luck with it.

To age or not age fruit ferments for distillations.... I dont know that I have strong convictions etiher way. But in general, like you see with wine, fruit musts are pretty rough when young, and mellow nicely with time. I usually let my ciders go 1 month to calm down, get a little malolactic fermentation going, and just generally clear and taste better before I run them, with the logic being, better in better out. And I wont drink them as ciders for 6 months. I do not use sulfites, only rinse the fruit carefully and then grind, press and ferment. Nothing added, ever. No matter the fruit, so yes there is a chance for some infection, but havent had a problem. Fruit is inherently acid. And a good yeast starter (or a lucky natural ferment) and youll be fine. A little white dusting on top is usually lacto, and not cause for any concern. Ive done lots of fruit ferments and the only time I had an issue was when I left 5 gallons of smashed plums go for 1 year, airlock dried out and some crazy shit started growing in there. Got busy with life that year and spaced it.

[stevenun]

Well here's how it went: I let the muscadine juice sit on the skins for five days. I strained out the juice and put it in a carboy for a week, and it was still going at a decent rate. I noticed some of the grapes didn't get crushed before, so I stomped them out again. I added 4 gallons of water and 6 pounds or so of sugar. I didn't add any yeast, I just let what was in there already multiply and take over. I let this sit on the skins for five days and then strained the juice and put in a second carboy.
I ran the first batch, and was very disappointed. I have a 5gal pot still with a worm. I usually get the first 150ml out at around 130 proof at a temp of around 190. This batch ran up to close to 200, and the first 150ml came out around 75 proof, and went down from there, pretty quick. I stored what came out in two quart jars to re run later.
I ran the second batch and was happier. It came out like usual, around 125, and started down. Instead of two runs I cut the heads and tails and kept the hearts, about a quart. It's got good smell to it and I dropped a few pieces of oak in the jar, punched a tiny hole in the lid, and sat it under the window to age.
I now have a gallon of my first run and the heads/tails of the second run. I'll re run them sooner or later. Really confused about the first batch, how it turned out worse than the second one. It was only 6% potential alcohol to start off...and fermented to 0, so the ferment didn't stick.
This was my third "meh" fruit run. I think I'll try some grains next. My apples, peaches, and first grapes all came out smelling the same. I'm just not sure how to get the flavors of the original ingredients to come through. My scotch smells and tastes like the grains and peat smoke, but my fruits just don't have the fragrance they start with.

[NZChris]

There is no flavor in sugar.

There is flavor way into what you maybe think is tails. That's why Cognac stillers run till the collection is below 30% for the stripping run and to barrel strength for the spirit run.

[stevenun]

I have plenty more grapes.... Im going to try again. I saw another post on these forums mentioning holding back some wine, doing the strip run, then adding the wine back to the still for the spirit run to add flavor. Muscadines smell so good and have such good flavor, I really want that to come through in the final product.

[NZChris]

You will get the flavor if you don't dilute it with sugar and don't leave it in the backset.

Brandy ain't whiskey, so don't run it like it is. I took a foreshot from my last spirit run and it tasted fine, good enough to include as I'd got rid of the nasties on the strip run. As long as you're not in a hurry to drink it as white dog, 'cuts' are not as demanding as with most spirits.

[ga flatwoods]

You didn't follow the tried and true! Wild yeast are a gamble always! Added sugar but did you melt it to sucrose first? You try too hard. No. That complicated.
Ga Flatwoods