baker's yeast and sugar washes

[Odin]

I have been toying around with various strains of yeast over the past years. And since I mostly make all grains or rye bread whiskey and vodka, I somehow return to baker's yeast. It seems to do the job perfectly fine, thank you.

Now, up until recently, I always took care of having my sugar washes (and others) ferment at temperatures of around 25 to 26 degrees C. That's 78 maybe 79 degrees F. Recently I decided to up the temperature. Baker's yeast works in hot environments, right? And suger washes are ... well, essentially rum fermentations, no? And rum is often fermented at temperatures of around 32 degrees C. That's 90 degrees Fahrenheit.

You know what I find out? It doesn't make the heads cut bigger. It doesn't give an overly "flowery" taste. It just ferments faster and better. Yeast seems to have an increadible amount of fun. And if taste changed in any way, it is that taste is great.

Regards, Odin.

[Bushman]

I have typically run my sugar washes at 28-30 C. with a controller.

[S-Cackalacky]

Odin, that's good to know. One of the best SF runs I ever had was from a hot ferment. I had 4 five gallon buckets in a hot box with a 60W light bulb (constantly on), but no thermometer, so I don't know the actual temps. It fermented to dry in less than 3 days. Had a good yield after cuts.

[bearriver]

I am a hardcore fan of using bakers yeast at higher temps. Used to have a little pump house/fermenter room that I kept at 30-32 degrees (C) with fantastic results.

[aladan]

I've also found fermentation temps. To be a big factor. I've always liked my sugar heads in the 85F range, usually finished in 4-5 days. Around here in the summer it gets real hot, before I got a refrigerator it would go at 95F+ and give me a lot of heads. Now I just put it in the fridge and use my temp controller to cycle the fridge, with the sensor in the wash.

[Odin]

Nice to see my findings hold true for others as well!

Regards, Odin.

[T-Pee]

I am a hardcore fan of using bakers yeast at higher temps.

Yep. I usually run mine at ~90f...especially rums.

tp

[Odin]

Good info. Yes, makes sense. If baker's yeast is good for sugar as well as at higher temps, it should be pretty ideal for rum making as well ...

Regards, Odin.

[midwest shinner]

Once again another great post Mr. Odin. I definitely agree with your findings, my bakers yeast ferments do turn out much less off flavors at higher temps than when I use brewers/ale yeasts. But I've also found that letting my sugar head ferments sit an extra 2 weeks or so after fermentation is completed also helps produce a better tasting product. Supposedly the yeast can soak up some of those fusels created during fermentation during this time(post fermentation that is).

[shadylane]

Considering Rum is normally brewed in the tropics,
It's not a big surprise that high temp ferments work for making Rum.

[Odin]

Good comment, Shadylane!

Mike, if you let it rest, you probably do that at lower temps, right? I know in beer making this phase of yeast getting rid of nasties is pretty essential. Yet, my good friend mr. Ian Smiley says that in making distillation beer, you don't want that. "That's where the dreadful esters are being made". I always found that a curious remark. And I felt his remark was wrong. If for nothing else, because Dutch gin (whiskey, prior to the gin distillation run) is fermented 5 days instead of 3 (Scottish whisky). And Dutch ... whiskey has more taste than Scotsch ...

Hmm ... the problem with this hobby (profession?) is that every answer pops up more Q's.

Anyhow, let's try to answer them!

Regards, Odin.

PS: there's another thread coming up by my hand that may be really good. Glad you like this one already, but please dive into the one I am about to post ...

[shadylane]

Ian Smiley may be right about dreadful esters being made.
But only if you leave the wash at a high temp after it's done fermenting.
Cold crashing a Rum wash and letting it settle before raking it into the pot seems like a good idea to me.

The idea of letting a fermentation sit on the lees long enough for the last surviving yeast to nibble at the nasties seems like an invitation to other problems.
Plus bakers yeast is in suspended animation at lower temps, so it can't be doing much nasty eating.

[T-Pee]

Only if you stick your grubby fingers in it.
Otherwise, there are way too many posts regarding the length of time a wash sits in the fermenter...almost every one of them positive or at least not negative.

tp

[shadylane]

Leave a wash sitting at 90F after its done fermenting for a couple of weeks at see what's growing.

[Odin]

On topic, guys, please, stay on topic!

So ... if we ferment "hotter" ... we seem to get better results. How come?

Odin.

[T-Pee]

Leave a wash sitting at 90F after its done fermenting for a couple of weeks at see what's growing.

Ah. Yes. That would be the difference.

tp

[midwest shinner]

Very true Odin, the temps that I keep those washes at is probably 10-15°F below my ferment temps. First off the lack of enzymatic activity in the yeast at that point does help to keep a lower temp In the first place, but then I also usually move it to a cooler area and if needed(usually only during summer) I will cool it in my spare fridge at its highest temp settings to encourage better clearing of the wash/mash. But I do generally run my A.G. mashes much sooner after fermentation is completed.

[midwest shinner]

And to stay on topic the better results at the higher temps I believe are just a result of the characteristics of the bakers yeast being used(especially in an environment in which they are accustomed.) Because they are generally grown from a molasses or cane sugar culture as well if memory serves me correctly

[shadylane]

On topic, guys, please, stay on topic!

So ... if we ferment "hotter" ... we seem to get better results. How come?

Odin.

Bakers yeast like a warm ferment.
Happy yeast makes a good drop.
Posting with midwest

[S-Cackalacky]

Have to agree with what Midwest Shiner and Shadylane had to say, it's producing a better wash because it's the nature of the yeast (baker's) to ferment at a higher temp. Now, I would also have to think that the opposite would be true for a lower temp yeast like EC-1118. That yeast might produce crap at a higher temp than what it was meant to run at, or possibly even stall or die.

[buflowing]

So ... if we ferment "hotter" ... we seem to get better results. How come?

Sorry, maybe I missed it, but I haven't read here where better results are achieved with bakers yeast at higher temps vs low temps. Just that folks ferment at high temps and are happy with it. I use bakers at low temps (65F to 70F) and am happy with the results. Anyone done both low and high temp ferments with bakers yeast and can compare the results?

[cranky]

Have to agree with what Midwest Shiner and Shadylane had to say, it's producing a better wash because it's the nature of the yeast (baker's) to ferment at a higher temp. Now, I would also have to think that the opposite would be true for a lower temp yeast like EC-1118. That yeast might produce crap at a higher temp than what it was meant to run at, or possibly even stall or die.

I don't often use bakers yeast because my local temps and unheated garage are generally better suited for a low temp yeast. I can say we had an unusually warm summer a couple years ago and my ferments using 1118 stopped somewhere between 80 and 85F. I am building a ferment box and may try something with both low and high temp bakers sometime.

[MitchyBourbon]

For bakers yeast, optimum temperature for arobic yeast propagation is between 92°F and 94°F. This is warmer than optimum fermentation temps around 80°F to 85°F. After fermentation is complete the yeast should be allowed a rest for 2 - 3 days to convert left over organic acids into less noticeable compounds. This rest should be held at normal fermentation temperatures. Then a good cold crash to put the yeast into hibernation and prohibit other organisms from contributing any off flavors.

Ever wonder why many sugar wash recipes call for large doses of yeast and don't mention any need for aeration? Not to mention the use of a little tomato paste that does not really provide all that much nutrition. The reason is that it is intended that the yeast should skip most of the growth phase and go directly to fermentation. Yeast create several organic acids during reproduction and cell wall building. The organic acids later react with high alcohols to produce esters. Eliminate the growth phase and you eliminate the production of organic acids, eliminate the production of organic acids and you eliminate the production of esters. No esters and your neutral tastes... more neutral.

How's that Rob Zombie song go again... more neutral than neutral rawwwww!

[midwest shinner]

Another reason to pitch a large starter if using less yeast or some type of brewers yeast. You can use less yeast and skip the growth phase if done with a large enough starter I guess

[MitchyBourbon]

You are correct again sir. A starter is even better. You can further control/eliminate acids by decanting the starter and pitching just the thick yeast slurry. The key is to make certain that the yeast propagated in your starter is well aerated throughout, sugar levels should be kept low, temps kept warm and proper nutrition is present. I use DME, you could use plain sugar but the you would have to add nutrients as sugar has none.

[Odin]

Midwest, I think you hit it bulls eye! In Europe, maybe in America as well, baker's yeast is produced by molasses. Especially sugar factories do it. They make sugar and use the by product molasses to grow yeast cultures on. Makes sense that (from the perspective of how to best use the by product molasses) that they grow a yeast on it that deals with other molasses qualities (high temp ferments for rum making). And from the perspecitve of a yeast producer wanting to put a yeast on the market: why would you feed that yeast with non-optimal diets?

Great write up Mitchy! On the esterification process. If you want a more neutral taste, one can follow your proposed procedure. But what if you wanted a more taste rich result (and esters are taste & smell molecules). Maybe a whiskey gets more taste if you allow the accids and organic compounds to react into a more and more esters? It would explain why I get better whiskey results with my whiskey now that I ferment at higher temps. Higher temps means more energy means more interaction and esterification takes place. May it also suggest we should always aeriate, prior to starting up a new mash, if we are after taste? I know that's what I do. It may also help us understand why "on the grain" fermenting and "on the grain distilling" gives us more taste. More organic components present to react with the accids. And at boiling temps, with particles present, you even get a partial Maillard reaction adding a bonus.

So ... if we take it from there (but correct me if I missed the point!) ... baker's yeast works great on taste rich, if we ferment a bit hotter, allow for grains to be present at least during fermentation, and if we aeriate.

If that is so, it also implies that baker's yeast is not optimal for neutrals or vodka's. They are probably better served by a low temperature yeast that's not propagated by aeriation.

Regards, Odin.

Edit: this may also explain why sour mashing - adding backset to a new ferment - works great in whiskey making. And why it gives me a vodka that - even though I like it - has plenty of taste in it. The sourness enhances esterification to take place during fermentation.

Another edit: Maillard reactions best take place in an alcalyc (sweet instead of sour) environment. At temps below boiling point of water. Now, the boiling point in a boiler is (due to the alcohol) always lower than 100 degrees C, so that's fine. But for a full swing Maillard reaction to take place in a first distillation with grains present ... we had better boost the pH of the wash we are about to distill, for instance with BiCarb, to 7.5 or 8 pH. Interesting. I will give it a try in a week from now and let you know how it works out!

[murdoch]

I don't have near the experience some of you guys have. I always use bakers yeast. I have an insulated barrel. It has 4" of rubber on the outside of it. I keep it an insulated sheetmetal box.It has a 60 watt light in it.I have just recently started doing this due to good ol' mother nature. The top is plex - glass with a 5/8" hose barb fitting with hose into a bucket. Love to watch it work. I have a thermometer like the one Pintoshine has in his video. My wash stays between 90 and 95°. I do use an aquarium heater in the wash. This is the first time I have used this setup. I always used cooled wash and about a 1/2 cup of sugar to start it prior. I am curious to see how this turns out. It's very comforting to see those that are more experienced fermenting at these tempatures. This wash was ready in 5 days. I only remove the top long enough to get a sample for my SG readings. I will post my results as soon as I run it. Sorry for butting in but it's important to me for learning.

[thecroweater]

All bakers yeast is not the same and will not ferment the same at the same temps. The one I use is called Lowens and is sourced from a French company. It works best at 28 to 34' c, to much below that will more than double the ferment time and doesn't produce as good a product or yield. I tried another brand (Tandaco) and it needed much lower temps, couldn't handle ABV above say 6 or 7% and even at that had flavours associated with stressed yeast. Most "bakers" yeast is bred and conditioned on a stratum of molasses as so is essentially a " rum" type yeast but others are clearly not

[Odin]

Nice info, Crow!

Your range of 28 to 34 degrees C is also what makes my baker's yeast happy. Bruggemans is what I use. A Belgian yeast.

http://www.algistbruggeman.be/Algist-Br ... e.aspx/103" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

Would you say 34 degrees is the maximum temp? I have taken my ferments up to 33.

Regards, Odin.

[Saltbush Bill]

For what its worth I often use Lowens bakers yeast at even higher temps, 38-40c I only do this for Rum washes as i want them to ferment hard and fast. I wouldn't suggest pushing it that hard in a neutral wash by any means.