Rye flour experiment....

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Ok, so it's been a while since I've been on the forum, but I have gotten pretty good with my rum. And decided to try a few "experimental" batches.

I had a 2.5kg bag of rye flour sitting in my cupboard that I hadn't used at all, so, I thought, what the hell, why not. (Admittedly, I didn't think to check the forums prior to attempting this)

Not having the slightest clue, I thought, first step, cook it, and see what happens. I threw the whole bag into a bop with 15litres of water, and started heating. Stirred the stuff constantly. I expected after a while, I'd end up with something along the lines of pancake batter....nope.

After nearly 2 hours of cooking and stirring I had what I can only compare to very thick cream of wheat. Being waaaaayyyyy to thick to even attempt to check Sg, I thought I should give it a taste. I expected to taste basically my mothers gravy (very dry floury flavour) but was pleasantly surprised by a comforting very sweet porridge (I was litterally eating it with a spoon, and was tempted to serve up a bowl for myself)

Sweet must mean starch to sugar conversion I figured. (I checked the temp, and was up around 150-160F for the most part) To add to the mix, I tossed in a couple cans of creamed corn for flavour, and a bottle and a half of corn syrup for extra sugars.

Threw in a few cups of sugar as well to help it along (keep in mind I was in mad scientist mode....)

I transferred the thick (very messy) goop to a 20l carboy (which I immediately decided may not have been the best fermentation vessel) and added a little more water in a feeble attempt to thin it out. Leaving me with approx 17-18 litres of porridge.

I let the whole thing cool and pitched my yeast.

After 24hrs, it's bubbling away, kind of from the top down... Can kind of tell visually that it's "thinner" up top, and gets thicker towards the bottom, but still fairly thick.

I have no idea what to expect from this, I've never done anything aside from rum washes in the past.
After searching the forums, and finding very little detail about flour mashes, I guess my biggest questions are
1) will this thin out???
2) how the hell am I gonna put this through my keg based pot still (haha) is there someway after fermentation to "squeeze" the liquid out of the solids?
3)did I achieve any form of starch to sugar conversion? Or am I basically just fermenting the extra sugars that I added?

Thanks for the insight guys.

[skow69]

No enzymes, no conversion, you're fermenting the added sugars. I don't even know how you're going to get it out of the carboy.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

No enzymes, no conversion

According to everything Ive read, (and my sources may be wrong) rye flour may have the enzymes it needs to convert itself.

"Rye and wheat grains both contain amylase, the enzyme that breaks down starches. The structure of a loaf of baked bread comes from starch having been gelatinized by the presence of water and heat. This gelatinized starch is susceptible to the action of amylase. Rye amylase is more heat-stable than wheat amylase, so a loaf of bread made with predominantly rye flour tends to be flat from the action of the amylase on the starch."

This would lead me to believe that the extreme sweetness of the porridge (prior to my additions of extra sugars) was due to conversion occurring during my cooking for so long and within the rye amylase working temps. Rye amylase (a-amylase) apparently runs rampant at between 130f and 140f which I would have been in and around for much of my cooking time.

Source: https://books.google.ca/books?id=eZjIfu ... re&f=false" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow


But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong in my reading....

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Well after day 2 the sludge is still going, noticing about 1/3 of the carboy is fairly liquid now, from a dip to the bottom, I can feel that I have about 2" of settled matter, and the rest is still gelatinous goo.

I dunno, this might actually work. Only time will tell, but so far it smells good, and is looking positive. From anyone with experience brewing with flour, should I stir the mix at all to pick the settled matter back up?

[jedneck]

I just started a rye flour and white wheat malt batch. It is 5 lbs rye flour, 2 lbs corn flour and 4 lbs white wheat malt ground to flour. Its still fermenting and when done I will cold crash for a couple days and rack to carboy to further settle.

[MichiganCornhusker]

According to everything Ive read, (and my sources may be wrong) rye flour may have the enzymes it needs to convert itself.

Doing a quick search, I ran across this:

"So what’s the secret to making great 100% rye whisky? They may not tell you this, but most whisky makers know it’s all in the enzymes. Unmalted rye does have fairly good diastatic properties on its own. Still, most rye distillers add commercially produced enzymes to help quickly break the rye starches down into sugars that the yeast can turn into alcohol. "

http://www.canadianwhisky.org/reviews/w ... iskey.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

In your readings, have you found anything that gives an estimated DP for unmalted rye?

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

No, I haven't found anything about the dp of the unmalted rye, however,

This proved to be a rather good read. While it is more of a baking thing, the explanations are valid for the purposes of this discussion.

http://www.azeliaskitchen.net/bread-flo ... rye-dough/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

With regards to amylase activity:

"In Geoffrey Hamelman’s book on p46 he details what happens to the dough in the early stages of baking and explains how this enzyme, amylase, is not destroyed until the temperature inside dough reaches 176F / 80C but in the meantime while the dough is reaching that temperature amylase is in a state of accelerated activity. Hamelman says once internal dough reaches 122F-140F / 50C – 60C the amylase are in, ‘…state of accelerated activity at these temperatures and are not destryoed by heat until about 176F therefore they have an opportunity to wreak considerable havoc by breaking down the starch into sugar and preventing the starch from forming a well structured crumb. This is the dreaded “starch attack”. The result unless the baker uses his/her skill is the bread with a gummy pasty crumb’."


Also perhaps another important detail:

"McGee points out another misfortune of rye grain, “Rye has another major breadmaking liability, it tends to begin sprouting before harvest so its starch digesting enzymes are active during baking and break down the other major source of dough structure.”"


Basically, rye flour and is ability to self convert is a small problem for bakers, but a blessing to us, as I read it.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Another good read on the subject.

http://muehlenchemie.de/downloads-futur ... Kap_15.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[skow69]

I stand ready to learn. Looking forward to your results.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

I stand ready to learn. Looking forward to your results.

Me too.. Good or bad, I will have learned some interesting stuff haha

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Well it's fermenting like mad...had a couple of overflows to clean up around the carboy so far today...between yesterday and today, it's gone from the top 1/3 being fairly liquid, to closer to 3/4 being fairly liquid, smells and tastes like some type of beer. I would definitely be hard pressed to believe I didn't get some form of conversion in the rye starches.

Still only about 2" +\- of settled matter, and very little thick sludge left.

I have no clue what this is "supposed" to look or taste like as it ferments.

Still not sure how I'm gonna run this through my still when it's done, from the overflow, it looks exactly like a banana milkshake or banana smoothie.

PH sitting at 5.2 (was 4.8 when I pitched the yeast)

[moosemilk]

Following this thread with interest as well. I have heard that unmalted rye does have some DP, but never found anything really conclusive. It'll be interesting to see what you end up with.

Too bad you didn't do an iodine test afterwards to check

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Following this thread with interest as well. I have heard that unmalted rye does have some DP, but never found anything really conclusive. It'll be interesting to see what you end up with.

Too bad you didn't do an iodine test afterwards to check

I know. I was out hunting for iodine today but couldn't find any around where I was working.

Will the iodine test work once fermentation has started?

[BrooklynTech]

When the fermentation is done try a COLD CRASH. That sure helps clear my beer.

[MichiganCornhusker]

I just gotta know.
I put 10# of store bought rye flour into 5 gallons of water @ 150F degrees. This made a very thick viscous pastey mess. Was very difficult to keep it moving in the pot to avoid scorching. In fact, when I poured it off there were signs that the flour was beginning to collect in places on the bottom of the pot. A scorch was not far off. I let this sit for about an hour. It was just as thick and there was no liquid layer separating at all. I tried to squeeze something out that I could do a hydrometer reading with, but it was just too slimey.

So, I split it up into two buckets and added enough water to bring the ratio down to 1# rye flour to 1 gallon water. This is much more manageable. I then heated them back up to 150F and set them in my insulated box for the night. This morning they were at 120F. Lots of clear liquid separated on top. I took a sample of the liquid and iodine shows all clear, pH is 5.8, SG is 1.03, tastes mildly sweet.

From the reading I did yesterday, I have a hunch that the amylase in the rye is mainly alpha, so this might be a lot of unfermentable stuff, but I'm pitching DADY when it cools down a bit.

Will keep y'all posted.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

That's great, we'll have two methods tried. Sometimes you just gotta let curiosity get the better of you, am I right?

I like how you thinned it off...I wasn't really sure what to do, at least you got a reading

Did you taste it before thinning it down? Mine tasted like oatmeal with a bunch of sugar in it. Like I used to make it when I was a kid.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

I just gotta know.
I put 10# of store bought rye flour into 5 gallons of water @ 150F

One more thing, what kind of rye flour did you use? I used dark apparently the dark has more of the grain than the light which is mostly just the germ.

[ga flatwoods]

Run it drunken smurf through a pot. May seem hot but don't let it fool you for the spice of rye. Use of rye flour works best as an adjunct.
Ga Flatwoods.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Yes, tasted like a porridge, was actually pretty good.

[skow69]

So, I split it up into two buckets and added enough water to bring the ratio down to 1# rye flour to 1 gallon water. This is much more manageable. I then heated them back up to 150F and set them in my insulated box for the night. This morning they were at 120F. Lots of clear liquid separated on top. I took a sample of the liquid and iodine shows all clear, pH is 5.8, SG is 1.03, tastes mildly sweet.

So you ended up with 30 ppg, right? Not bad for no malt/no enzymes.

I'll be damned!

[ga flatwoods]

That's it Michigan, hard to find down here. Carried mostly for diabetics I am told $5.65/5#.
Ga Flatwoods

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Fermentation still happening, not as aggressive (thank goodness, all the spillage was really a pain to clean up lol) but still bubbling away happily.

Think I have some ideas on how to rack it off, gonna try michigans split, add more water trick, then let it clear. The added water should (theoretically) thin the stuff down enough to strain. It may mean having to run it an extra time or two to get the alc. up, but I'm ok with that for an experimental small batch.

In the mean time, I've been reading up on electric conversion for my still. Since I'll have a welder on site welding stainless for me at work, I figured might as well take advantage and get a couple bungs welded into my kegs. At minimum, drain, fill, and element.

[ga flatwoods]

You could always drop in a pack of gelatin like used for canning. It will do a good job in a few days to sparkling.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Fermentation still happening, not as aggressive (thank goodness, all the spillage was really a pain to clean up lol) but still bubbling away happily.

Ha, same here. 3 gallons in a 5 gallon wasn't enough head space, I had overflow from all 3 buckets this morning. Settling down now, going to put into carboys with airlocks later today. Thanks for getting this going, Smurf, if nothing else it has been entertaining for me.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Just put this stuff into carboys, pulled some off to check SG. Tastes mildly alcoholic, like weak beer. Went from 1.03 to 1.01 in 24 hrs.
This was nothing more than rye flour and hot water... Crazy, but this just might work.

[jedneck]

Mine plunged the airlock also. It is really slowing down, I will probably cold crash it finite and run it Sunday. If it scorches all the more reason to get off my rear and get my steamer built.

[Drunk-N-Smurf]

Thanks for getting this going, Smurf, if nothing else it has been entertaining for me.

Thanks for trying along with me! If nothing else it may evolve into a simple recipe for beginners to introduce themselves to grains. That's part of why I did it, I didn't have the confidence to buy a bunch of whole grains to try it. The wife keeps a close eye on the pocket book and even a few dollars wasted is huge to her. But a bag of flour, that's easily justified if it doesn't work

You'll probably get to run yours before me, so I'm anxious to see how it turns out. I read a research paper when I was reading up on all this that said straight malted rye has a max abv of approx 65% coming through the still so, if your not getting the high abv your used to, don't panic. I don't know what kind of still they used or anything but it was likely a pot still. with a column you can probably pull more.

[Jo Diesel]

Are you running it through a pot still? Curious what it tastes like and abv. after a single run.

[ga flatwoods]

Look to start heads at around 120 with hearts to 85+/- around 100 average.

[jedneck]

You could always drop in a pack of gelatin like used for canning. It will do a good job in a few days to sparkling.

Do you mix it with water or sprinkle it in dry?