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I'm still trying to learn to make my cuts. All the whiskey I have made (pot still) has had a burn to it that I do not find enjoyable.

yesterday I took 2 gallons of spirits that I had been aging on oak and ran them for a third distillation to see if I could get anything a bit more drinkable. The still is a simple pot still, about a 3 foot x 2 inch column stuffed with copper mesh.

this time I had a really hard time finding my cuts. I ran off 4 quarts of "heads" all over 85%/ I say "heads" because they all smell really clean except maybe the first one, but the percentage is higher than I understand when I am supposed to make my cuts, and I'm assuming this is because I am starting with whiskey instead of low wines. I finally started pulling hearts and the hearts I pulled were still over 85%. Then, with no warning the proof dropped to 65% and I didn't enjoy the taste as much so I cut that as tails.

I am glad to say the whiskey does not have as much of a burn, but I only have a little over a half gallon when cut down to 65%. I was surprised at how high the proof stayed. This is the first time I have done a triple distillation. It may be that on my still that this is the way I will have to run. When I have been running my low wines I pulled hearts from about 80-65%, but it seems like I was still getting heads or tails or whatever was causing the burn.

I don't mind running the third distillation but I am wondering if I am doing something wrong, or is it something with the design of my still. The distalate is crystal clear and when I run the low wines the smell is terrific, so great I can't wait to drink it. But when I drink it I don't like it. Seems like I have something now on the third run that is drinkable, but I'm not sure if I should have included more of the "heads" since at least half of what In pulled smells pretty close to the hearts. I am trying to use taste and smell as best as I can to determine where to make the hearts cuts but I am obviously not very skilled at it.

I'm not sure I have a question on not, just looking if anyone has any experience they want to share.

BTW: Recipe is pretty simple. Either all malt or malt with corn. US-05 or other clean ale yeast fermented cool and not with a starting OG over 1.065.

How are you doing cuts? What size jars do you collect in? Do you air it before attempting cuts? What size is your still? What recipe are you using? What was the starting and ending gravity of the wash? What yeast did you use? How fast are you running? Need more information to give any kind of advice.

15 gallon still. 200 ml jelly jars. Recipe as mentioned. OG as mentioned. Running slow, not exactly sure because I haven't timed it but I can't really run any slower. I pay very special attention to make sure it doesn't heat up too fast, and then let the distillate drip drip drip.

A little more detail on the recipe: I'm a brewer and have access to plenty of malt. So most of it is malt and flaked maize.

I don't even worry about ABV until after cuts are made by taste and smell as well as an airing out period. Cutting by ABV won't help you much, especially when running higher proof than the original mash run.
Heads certainly don't smell "really clean" to me, ever

bellybuster wrote:I don't even worry about ABV until after cuts are made by taste and smell as well as an airing out period. Cutting by ABV won't help you much, especially when running higher proof than the original mash run.
Heads certainly don't smell "really clean" to me, ever

When I run the low wines I definitely don't think the heads taste clean. I'm probably being too paranoid about what I am claling "heads" on this 3rd distillation. Do any other whiskey makers on the forum find it necessary to do 3 distillations to get a clean whiskey? My percentage of corn is only around 50%, when I have been using corn. I'd like to get to where I can do a higher percentage of corn but right now it is a supply issue. I have "(literally) ton's of malt. I'd really like to gtet an all-malt whiskey I find enjoyable.

This last batch was a combination of a bunch of different stuff I started out with, just a hodge podge of my forst couple trial batches. Mostly all malt. It's not really any kind of recipe. the recipe I have been using now and am still trying to nail is 51% corn and 49% 2 row. I'm planning on redistilling 2 gallons of that tomrorow to see if I like the results better. I find the same "hotness" on the corn and 2 row as I do in the "hodge podge". The smell is terrific! The taste is clean but not smooth. Too hot going down, not really drinkable.

quick question, how long are you leaving it on oak before you say its not a clean whiskey??

I sometimes double distill but quite often single run, actual mashes usually get double run. I would like to consider my whiskey "clean". I don't tend to touch it for at least 6 months, longer on wood is better.

Maybe it hasn't sat long enough. Been sitting on oak since beginning of November. I also am wondering if I over charred it.. I toasted it at 400 for about 30 minutes or so and then lightly charred it with a butane torch. The inside of barrels are charred so I figured my oak should be too. But the flavor is not right. But maybe I am being too impatient.

I had plans to age it for 6 months but have been sampling expecting to see improvements and have been disappointed every time. But I think I will just keep the other two gallons aging and see what happens. I may replace the oak though.

you are diluting to 40% or so for drinking right?

the recipe sounds good to me.

Maybe not enough on the wood. i toast at 380 for 2 hours, and depending on sweetness/coloration desired i go heavier char for more. what kind of wood? 'merican oak is nice, sweeter more vanillins and caramel flavour. french oak is spicier and actually has a bit of "burn" never tried red oak, heard it's awful and figgered, and i don't like cutting it so why waste a jar to find out. aging at 80% on wood has initially pulled some more acrid flavours quicker, watering down to 60 and more time fixed it. try for 62.5% for oaking.

white dog don't taste like whisky. try fully silenced nuke aging for a quick fix, or maybe a few medium toast oak chips from the LHBS. to speed up the flavour.

i also find that 3 months is an awkward time for spirits. something that came off smooth gets a bite that wasn't there before, then magically around 6 months it smooths out again.

i often pinch a jar out of a single run. my favourite is 1.5x for full body flavour / cleanliness. if i'm going for clean and tight, a double distillation. never had to do a triple on whiskey...on limited experience with rum, yes, a triple once.

HDNB wrote: i also find that 3 months is an awkward time for spirits. something that came off smooth gets a bite that wasn't there before, then magically around 6 months it smooths out again.

I find the same,at about that time it gains a bite that worries then another month or two and its gone.

Yes. diluting down to about 40-45% for drinking. I appreciate the advice. Sounds like I am being the typical impatient new guy.

One thing I should say is that the oak spirals I am using were already medium toast which is why I only let them toast for 30 minutes. Perhaps I'll add a some cubes or chips to deepen the oak. The spire was supposed to be for 5 gallons and I broke it up in several pieces to accommodate for gallon glass jugs. I was afraid of over oaking.

The other thing is a couple of months ago I broke out a jar of clear liquor with some friends and every one remarked at how smooth it was compared to other "shine" they had tried (and I credited everything I had learned from reading this forum) so apparently it ain't so hot it can't be consumed. It's just, given my whiskey and a "cheap" whiskey like Very Old Bartons, I'll take the VOB, thank you very much.

I wouldn't increase the amount of oak. Increase the amount of time on it instead. Much better results. My opinion of course.

HDNB wrote:you are diluting to 40% or so for drinking right?

the recipe sounds good to me.

Maybe not enough on the wood. i toast at 380 for 2 hours, and depending on sweetness/coloration desired i go heavier char for more. what kind of wood? 'merican oak is nice, sweeter more vanillins and caramel flavour. french oak is spicier and actually has a bit of "burn" never tried red oak, heard it's awful and figgered, and i don't like cutting it so why waste a jar to find out. aging at 80% on wood has initially pulled some more acrid flavours quicker, watering down to 60 and more time fixed it. try for 62.5% for oaking.

white dog don't taste like whisky. try fully silenced nuke aging for a quick fix, or maybe a few medium toast oak chips from the LHBS. to speed up the flavour.

i also find that 3 months is an awkward time for spirits. something that came off smooth gets a bite that wasn't there before, then magically around 6 months it smooths out again.

i often pinch a jar out of a single run. my favourite is 1.5x for full body flavour / cleanliness. if i'm going for clean and tight, a double distillation. never had to do a triple on whiskey...on limited experience with rum, yes, a triple once.

I don't remember reading anything about diluting it. If that's the case, that would more than explain the bite. I don't know what effect a short toasting time (20 min.?) would have on flavor. That could be a problem too.

Cantbuyathrill, are you using the malted grains for an AG mash, or are you also adding sugar? It's hard to imagine that you aren't getting a good product from the protocol you've described thus far.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your previous post before writing this.

BTW - You don't need to run "drip drip drip" slow. A small stream (broken to pencil lead size) will do fine on a spirit run. For stripping runs, just crank it through as fast as your condenser can handle it.

There's no sugar. I work at a brewery and use some of the best malted barley available (Thomas Fawcett maris Otter and Best Pils).

With the 30 minute toast it was on an already medium toast spire, which is why the low amount of time.

I was making my cuts from taste and smell for the first several runs and now I am starting to use proof after reading "Making Pure Corn Whiskey". I am thinking that I will just set it aside and come back to it in June or July and keep making my wash and low wines and pressing forward. A year from now hopefully I can log in and tell everyone how great it turned out after all.

cantbuyathrill wrote:I am thinking that I will just set it aside and come back to it in June or July and keep making my wash and low wines and pressing forward. A year from now hopefully I can log in and tell everyone how great it turned out after all.

I would bet that this will resolve everything, looking forward to the post.

Well, good luck with it. I'm sure you'll get a handle on things with a little patience and practice. Keep reading and I'm sure things will eventually click into place. The mashing skills you already have will be a big plus as you progress in the hobby.

yep, i think you are on to it. you must have a well developed palate, and just need some time to meet your exacting standards. sounds like you got it all goin on.
a little extra good tails in the blend will add some complexity on long term aging.
hope it all works out.

I have to say I have had pretty good luck with the oak spirals in both rum and whiskey.

a lot of good advice here. best thing to do is just make more and keep at it. make small changes at a time so you know what you have done differently

as far as the heads, id go to the likker store, buy a nip or two of the cheapest shittiest vodka you buy. come home and pour those into a glass and take a big wiff and small taste then compare it to yours. the vodka is FULL of heads! once you can smell and tastes the heads in your own you will be ruined because that's all you will ever smell in commercial from that day forward.

also I start in the middle and collect all the tails I want to keep. then working back towards the heads ill put a little from a jar into what I know is my hearts and tails. if I like it , it will be added. tasting them combined will make a difference . late heads will have a small bite but once diluted and nix with the hearts you will get a better understanding of how your final blend will taste. once you get to a jar that you have made a small sample with and you don't like it . stop there. personally the tails to me have the most flavor so I run deep and add back in quite deep from my tails.


" cant buy a thrill" is a fantastic album

good luck

cheers

rager

From what I read your not letting them air out for a couple days before cutting?And diluting 50/50 with water after airing
will help a ton.Maybe I missed that and that is what you are doing, the change that happens thru the aging process is up and down
and never ending in my opinion.In the beginin phase of Oaking things change fairly rapid, then the aging kicks in that changes
fast at first day to day then week to week then month to month.Then your whiskey starts to mature, where you noticed the difference
from one month to the next it will maybe be a year before you notice a difference in complexity.Time my friend that is the key you will
do fine remember this ain't beer brewing.

Thanks for all the advice. I will definitely try the cheap vodka trick to learn the heads smell. I never thought of that.

And, yes, I was not letting them air out, I talked to a guy last night who makes a good drop and he gave me that advice as well. So I'm going to open all that I have made for a few days and see if that makes a difference. I shared a pint of the stuff I ran on Thursday night and he told me I was on the right track, thought it was pretty clean. In fact, he kept asking for another pull so I recon he thought it really was pretty good. Of course, it better be since it was tripel distilled.

As far as the can't buy a thrill reference - yes, I'm a big SD fan.

Yea let em air 18 24 hrs then take a spoon full in a glass add some water to it and give it a taste
I go 50% for tasting you can go a little heavy on the water.