Poll: Remove foreshots, or just drink them

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:37 pm

just want a general consensus

Rudi · Post by **Rudi** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:39 pm

I remove them for no other reason than it can't hurt and for taste I also need somthing to run my fish smoker on

wineo · Post by **wineo** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:41 pm

I remove at least 100mls on every run,no matter how many times im going to run it.

junkyard dawg · Post by **junkyard dawg** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 1:56 pm

I'm gonna bet its close to 100% remove...

I like vision and don't like headaches.

Post by **Husker** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:01 pm

Of course people remove the foreshots.

However, just as pinto has pointed out, methanol is removed during a larger first part of the run (if not the whole run). It is a "mixture" and behaves as such (in a pot still run). Yes, there is much less methanol later on in the run (to the point that it is simply a tiny trace), but it is still there.

For that matter, again like was mentioned, if you drink wine, then you certainly do drink the methanol produced (or if you drink beer, or even orange juice for that matter). NO it is not concentrated like you get with a distillation apparatus, but it is all the MeOH none the less.

However, the "golden rule" of tossing out the fores, is certainly good practice. There might be 75% of the methanol in that first 100ml. NOTE the talk here is about a pot still. If using a fractional still properly, you "can" remove all (or almost all) of the methanol, and other nasties.

H.

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:41 pm

Husker wrote: There might be 75% of the methanol in that first 100ml.
H.

I would also like to add that there are many contributing factors as to how much methanol is present in the fermented wash. Was there alot of stress put on the yeast? were the seeds left in the fermenter during fermentation?, was the temp warm(close to 80degreesF)? etc.

My point in THAT thread was that it is NOT safe to make a newbie think that he should not toss the foreshots.
What if HIS particular wash contains more than the average amount of methanol, and it kills his best friend. The cops ask him about it, and he says "PINTOSHINE from homedistiller.org said it was OK and wouldn't kill anyone."

Common sense here.....be safe ALLLLLLLL the time, not just sometimes.

ANyway, this poll is for my own piece of mind, and for any newbies to see that it is THE right way to do things.

Post by **Husker** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:51 pm

pothead wrote:ANyway, this poll is for my own piece of mind, and for any newbies to see that it is THE right way to do things.

Noobs will not see this poll, unless it is moved.

However, I doubt (SERIOUSLY) that any one of the regulars who are part of this forum, fail to remove foreshots. I pull out fores, and tails both. Commercial booze has far more things in it which give me a hangover. Removing those things (other than the ethanol and water), is one of the main reasons I distill as a hobby. When I drink, I like to have a several drinks, and drink things neat. I do not wake the next day with a hangover, which is why I quit drinking most of the commercial stuff, because drinking that, I almost always had some form of hang over.

H.

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 2:55 pm

but, noobs will and have seen where someone said "the first shot off the still won't kill you"

ANd I think that is BAAAAD info to be spreading to noobs...don't you?

Post by **Husker** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 3:05 pm

I do agree to that.

There is so much variance in mash production, that those foreshot can vary greatly from recipe to recipe. The "100ml" rule is very general, but also something that has shown it's time tested wisdom. For some washes, 100ml is probably an overkill. However, for others, it is probably much more appropriate, and for some it is possibly even a little bit on the small side.

H.

duds2u · Post by **duds2u** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 4:50 pm

I don't plan on waying into the fray on the subject and I will preface my comment by saying that I when I am using my pot still I always throw out anything before 78.8°C. That equates to about 20 ml on a 25 litre wash.

I have been doing a fair bit of study on scotch whisky production methods and nowhere have I found that they throw anything away. Would you really expect a Scot to throw anything away anyway?

There is no cut made for foreshots in either the wash or spirit distillations. During the spirit run they only have heads, heart and tails.
All of the heads and tails are combined and called Feints. The feints are returned to the wash still for the next wash distillation.

Post by **HookLine** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:24 pm

Even if it don't kill you, the foreshots smell and taste terrible. And isn't there other stuff in there, like acetone?

Post by **MisterSteve124** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:35 pm

If there's one thing this forum teaches you it's definetly to try and make the safest spirits possible and that removing the foreshots is a main part of that.

BW Redneck · Post by **BW Redneck** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 6:12 pm

duds2u wrote:I have been doing a fair bit of study on scotch whisky production methods and nowhere have I found that they throw anything away. Would you really expect a Scot to throw anything away anyway?

But then again, rednecks don't wanna throw anything out either!

The feints-returning process you've outlined is pretty much what I do on a UJSM circuit. If I'm doing varuious different mashes, I'll combine the feints and run them all together to do an odds and ends run. Some taste fantastic, others will really make you "feint".

(bad pun intended)

Dunderhead · Post by **Dunderhead** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 7:50 pm

HAYY Watch your tung !!
I'm Irish --Native american and???? 100% RED NECK
I havent drank commercial in ??? years
I take off foreshot prubbly more than nessarly
My grate grand dad came over hear one step ahead
of the law, horse theaf ? I enjoy what I make If not
IT goes back in still. Yea I'm cheep I find something
to do with all the wast. clener, disinfictent- lees -fertalizerr
I like what i make ,if it wornt four law i could have one hell of
bizness.No Head ake NO HANGOVER I,Have alot of pepole
interased in my produc BUT???

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 8:37 pm

First of all your poll is a little tainted in the fact of the way you askedthe question. Of course we toss the foreshots, but not because of the methanol. It is because they taste and smell bad just like most of the heads.
You have not given any conclusive evedence that the foreshots has any more methanol than the rest of the run.
I gave evidence of studies that show charted and GC data that showed the methanol is in the whole run from a very nicely built pot still at the same ratio to as the ethanol.

This is from http://homedistiller.org/Fruit%20brandy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow which is what the conversation got started from in the first place.
The collection points are heads hearts and tails according to the reading.
Your turn show us that there is more methanol in the foreshots.
If you can't then it is just your opinion isn't it?

Bastardo · Post by **Bastardo** » Wed Dec 12, 2007 11:46 pm

ok I remove them because of everything I have read here... but I have to tell ya, my father has been distilling wine for years, when I told him about removing the foreshots he laughed at me. He grew up in a small village in Italy, there were stills everywhere, and no body ever removed any foreshots. THey just distill and drink. for many years... no one ever went blind according to him.... the tradition goes back hundreds of years. apparantly...

punkin · Post by **punkin** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:13 am

Bastardo wrote:ok I remove them because of everything I have read here... but I have to tell ya, my father has been distilling wine for years, when I told him about removing the foreshots he laughed at me. He grew up in a small village in Italy, there were stills everywhere, and no body ever removed any foreshots. THey just distill and drink. for many years... no one ever went blind according to him.... the tradition goes back hundreds of years. apparantly...

Tastes like shit, though.
Although i gotta say it's nice enough when you don't know any better. Once you get a good understanding of whats going on, you don't drink the first litre of a 30 litre wash, let alone 100ml.

Cause it tastes like shit.

CoopsOz · Post by **CoopsOz** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 12:13 am

Regardless of health concerns, I drink and smoke far more than I should.....the fores and heads just taste plain bad, I can't believe anyone would consider drinking the shit. Even when blended in with the whole run, it spoils all your good likker.

Edit - you beat me Punkin

Aidas · Post by **Aidas** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 3:18 am

I toss more than necessary (about 50 ml. from a 15 liter wash of 10-12%) and continue to toss that amount from every run, whether it's a second run or a third.

I agree that that's proabably overkill, but it's better to be safe than sorry, especially when it's such a small amount

BTW, drinking the same amount of methanol (comparing a bottle of wine and several shots of distillate) is not the same. First, the concentration is different. Second, ingestion time (and thus filtering through the liver and kidneys) is different, thus effects on body tissue and the system are qualitatively different.

In any case, the only responsible stance here is that newcomers should be made aware that it is the policy of the more experienced distillers on this forum to THROW OUT THE FORESHOTS. Simple as that. Again, better to be cautious than make a scientific point.

Aidas

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 6:16 am

pintoshine wrote:First of all your poll is a little tainted in the fact of the way you askedthe question. Of course we toss the foreshots, but not because of the methanol. It is because they taste and smell bad just like most of the heads.
You have not given any conclusive evedence that the foreshots has any more methanol than the rest of the run.
I gave evidence of studies that show charted and GC data that showed the methanol is in the whole run from a very nicely built pot still at the same ratio to as the ethanol.
This is from http://homedistiller.org/Fruit%20brandy.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow which is what the conversation got started from in the first place.
The collection points are heads hearts and tails according to the reading.
Your turn show us that there is more methanol in the foreshots.
If you can't then it is just your opinion isn't it?

WHO'S SHINE WAS USED IN THAT STUDY?
Not everyone runs the same stuff, uses the same yeast, ferments at the same temperatures, uses the same amount of heat to distill with, etc,etc,etc,etc.....There are WAY more factors involved.
The Point...........it is very,very,very bad to tell a newbie that it is ok to keep your foreshots mixed in you product, AND that "drinking the first shot won't kill ya". Not only is it bad for the site, it is bad for all the noobs, and for your own credibility.... And I am sure that the majority of the people here will agree, So....
Drop it already.

pintoshine · Post by **pintoshine** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:38 am

No I am not going to drop it because you are propagating a myth that you are avoiding the methanol by tossing the foreshots, when all I am trying to to do is warn all the noob that all the distilled spirits contains some methanol and it is not being eliminated by tossing the foreshots.
The point is that the only way to avoid the methanol is to not drink distilled spirits, fruit juices or anything that contains aspertame.

I don't give a crap what you think about it, you are wrong, and possibly setting some noob up for a disaster leading them to believe that they are eliminating all the methanol by tossing the foreshots. What you are saying will lead them to believe that they could grab some denatured alcohol and toss out the methanol with the foreshots which is proven to not be true.
I am at least giving them the straight story and not giving them false expectations or mis-information. I'm done on this subject. I will continue to tell them the truth that they will be ingesting methanol with all parts of the spirits.

pothead · Post by **pothead** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 9:10 am

pintoshine wrote:No I am not going to drop it because you are propagating a myth that you are avoiding the methanol by tossing the foreshots, when all I am trying to to do is warn all the noob that all the distilled spirits contains some methanol and it is not being eliminated by tossing the foreshots.
The point is that the only way to avoid the methanol is to not drink distilled spirits, fruit juices or anything that contains aspertame.

I don't give a crap what you think about it, you are wrong, and possibly setting some noob up for a disaster leading them to believe that they are eliminating all the methanol by tossing the foreshots. What you are saying will lead them to believe that they could grab some denatured alcohol and toss out the methanol with the foreshots which is proven to not be true.
I am at least giving them the straight story and not giving them false expectations or mis-information. I'm done on this subject. I will continue to tell them the truth that they will be ingesting methanol with all parts of the spirits.

calm down,buddy.
yes they will be consuming methanol....but WAY less if they toss the foreshots.
I see that you will not let this go....So, I will be the bigger man here, and I will drop it.

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Thu Dec 13, 2007 1:45 pm

I over cut my fores.
But if I buy a litre bottle of zinfindel from winn dixe. I distill the crap and cut as much methanol as possible then drink it. I see no difference than drinking the whole bottle of wine as well.
and it would not be any different if I ran it from my still or another still.

But iwould not recommend that we drink a shot of mrthanol.

THey just distill and drink.

This wouldnt be any different situation than drinking the whole bottle of wine.

Post by **shadylane** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 12:22 am

It is obvious from the graft supplied by pintoshine that methanol is present in all the run. The biggest danger is someone drinking the low temp distillate that comes off first "forshots" and getting a big dose of methanol. I'm sure we all agree, drinking staight foreshots can be deadly.

Post by **manu de hanoi** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 6:15 am

The foreshots are the most perfumed alcohol (i do rhum). But they also smell like ether and acetone.

I think that in order to produce something really good, we should keep the foreshots, and redistill them and try to separate the perfumed components from the nasty ones.

Alchemist · Post by **Alchemist** » Sat Dec 15, 2007 8:11 pm

Pintoshine,

I don't really doubt what you say, that some methanol stays in the heart cut, but upon looking over that study, I would have to say it doesn't convince me. I actually run that exact type of equipment that they used and I don't care for the trace data they present. The "valid" methanol peak areas are garbagely small. Noise in my professional opinion. Most of that methanol data strikes me as lab contamination. And did you notice some of the ethanol data was WELL over 100%. WTF? I can grant a few percentage points for basic variation, but not 20 and 30 %. If that is off, what else is off?

Not as a challenge to you, but for some data that I would trust, I would love to run some foreshots, heart cuts and tail on my instrumentation as see what it actually shows. Care to touch base with me via PM to set up some actual analysis? I would happily post results.

The Chemist · Post by **The Chemist** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 7:50 am

Actually, those look pretty representative for direct injection with FID. I'd like to see the baseline better, though, you can't really see the shape of the peaks...with the PDF format, you just can't make out a whole lot. When I first started working with booze, we used FID, but I pushed to switch to MS years ago!! Couldn't be happier...

The thing I would caution is that this is brandy data. Brandy and tequila naturally have high methanol levels, and I would be very cautious extrapolating this data to other distillates.

Good luck on the 'hook-up'...it's a very cautious crowd, for obvious reasons. I tried to get a study going a couple of years ago with the grandiose hope of showing that people weren't going to kill themselves by making their own...only had one taker, God rest his soul.

Post by **bronzdragon** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 9:06 am

Because of what I've read, and generally because the foreshots smell terrible ... I toss em out on the weeds. I'm the type of person that would rather be over carefull and lose a cup of booze, rather then have some off-smelling and potentially dangerous chemicals in my drinks. I do this as a hobby, a few cups here or there is not going to make a difference.

I do keep a liberal amount of my heads though and reprocess them.

I've never really taken a reading on my foreshots ... but my heads usually start out a little higher in alc, then settle into a good percentage when the hearts are ready to start.

My opinion is, better safe then sorry. And as far as traditionally including everything ... I think that we just learn things as we go along and this may be one of those things we've learned in the last 20 years that makes the drink better.

~r~

grainhopper · Post by **grainhopper** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:09 pm

One more time.

Lets say you buy a bottle of cheap ass wine you distill it, and hypothetically you can separate every bit of methanol from the rest of the wine. You could drink all the methanol and it would not kill you, unless the whole bottle of wine would kill you in the first place.

Post by **bronzdragon** » Mon Dec 17, 2007 4:17 pm

Kill ... no, heck of a hangover, yes.

~r~

Home Distiller

Poll: Remove foreshots, or just drink them

Remove foreshots(and methanol) or just drink them

Poll: Remove foreshots, or just drink them

Forshots