Enzymes and protocol

[shadylane]

I'd like to compare notes
1. What enzymes are you using
2. Where did you get the enzymes
3. What mash protocol do you use, readers digest condensed version please.

[3d0g]

1. Specialty Enzymes
2. enzymash.biz
3. Start hot and work my way down, adjusting pH as appropriate.
[tr][td]SEBstar HTL[/td] [td]0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg)[/td] [td]pH 5.6-6.5[/td] [td]122-194F (50-90C)[/td][/tr] [tr][td]SEBamyl GL[/td] [td]0.36ml/lb (0.8ml/kg)[/td] [td]pH 2.8-5.5[/td] [td]86-149F (30-65C)[/td][/tr] [tr][td]SEBflo TL[/td] [td]0.23ml/lb (0.5ml/kg)[/td] [td]pH 4.0-6.5[/td] [td]86-140F (30-60C)[/td][/tr]

[crazy]

Good description 3dog , very useful !

[bentstick]

Speciality Enzymes also ,but no TL,start hot and added as temps are reached,all on grain including fermenting

[MichiganCornhusker]

1. SEBStar HTL, SEBAmyl-GL
2. enzymash.biz
3. Boil water, add corn (or other unmalted grains), adjust to pH 6 with baking soda, add SEBStar, heat to 190F. Put in insulated box overnight with tight fitting lid on bucket. Next day temps will be between 130F and 140F, drop to pH 5 with citric acid, add SEBAmyl, heat up to 150F, put in insulated box for 1 or 2 hours, until iodine shows conversion. Cool, Pitch, Ferment on grain.

[DeepSouth]

1. SEBstar HTL, SEBAmyl-GL
2. Enzymash.biz
3. Boil water, add in ground corn and stir with drill powered paint mixer. Continue boiling for about 30 minutes using steam injection, mash becomes very thick. Let cool naturally to around 190 F, then add SEBstar HTL enzymes and stir again with mixer. Mash thins instantly. Insert immersion chiller and cool to about 155 F. Add malted grains and stir again, cover with blanket for 1-2 hours. Sometimes I add SEBAmyl-GL, but usually I just rely on the enzymes in the malted grains for conversion. Insert immersion chiller and cool to 90 F and pitch yeast.

[shadylane]

1. SEBfuel BA-100 medium temp alpha-amylase
SEBfuel GA-100 glucoamylase
2. I think it might have been milehigh
3. Start hot and work my way down also.
BA-100 temp 150-165f pH 5.5-6.0
GA-100 temp 130-145f pH 3.5-4.5

[MichiganCornhusker]

1. SEBfuel BA-100 medium temp alpha-amylase
SEBfuel GA-100 glucoamylase
2. I think it might have been milehigh
3. Start hot and work my way down also.
BA-100 temp 150-165f pH 5.5-6.0
GA-100 temp 130-145f pH 3.5-4.5

Shady, do you cook your corn at higher temps, or only up to 165F?

[shadylane]

The corn is cooked with steam at around 200-210f and allowed to cool to 165f overnight.

[MichiganCornhusker]

Made up some booner's yesterday. I didn't need to adjust for SEBStar HTL, and 6 cups of wheat whiskey backset in 5 gallons got be in range for SEBAmyl. OG 1.068 today.

[FtW]

1. SEBstar HTL, SEBAmyl-GL
2. Hamilton Hops & Grapes
3. Boil water, pour on milled corn in insulated cooler. Stir it up with a drill & paint mixer to break up clumps, then add SEBstar HTL and stir regularly keeping the lid closed as much as possible to hold the temp for a few hours. Insert immersion chiller and cool to about 155 F. Add malted grains and stir again, close for 1-2 hours & stir occasionally. Add SEBAmyl-GL & stir, then either leave it for another hour or so with a stir or 2 & use the chiller to drop to pitching temp, or if I started late leave it to the morning then chill & pitch.

[scuba stiller]

7 gallon boiling water (raise my well water pH to 5.6>6.5 with Sodium Carbonate)
25 lbs. cracked corn
Add corn to water, stir. Re-light burner when water drops to 160 F. Stir.
Add SEBStar Alpha Amalyse (0.36ml X 25 = 9ml) Stir
Top 10 gallon pot w/water to fill. Stir. Keep pot full from here out.
Heat to 185 F. Turn off burner. Stir. Cover w/insulating blankets, etc.
Next morning, Stir. Re-light Burner, slowly bring temp up to 185 F. Stir frequently.
Turn off burner. Transfer beer to insulated cooler.
Stir hourly & check temperature.
At 148 F adjust pH to 2.8 > 5.5 range with backset. Stir.
Add SEBAmyl – GL (9ml), stir.
Cover to maintain heat. Stir again after an hour.
Waiting overnight is best. Check SG (usually about 1.075 sometimes higher)
Strain to separate beer from corn.
Squeeze corn. I’m using my fruit press.
Sparge w/ 3 gallons HOT water. (sparge is usually 1.03 or 1.04 SG) Squeeze corn.
All beer in the fermenter, SG 1.065 pitch yeast, airlock, wait.

[pascuc]

1. 45 liter (11.9 gal) cold tap water + 10 kg (22 lb) corn meal
2. Starting cold, mixing with an electric powered agitator while pouring
the corn meal
3. Firing up the gas burner
4. Enzymes used:
- PROTEMYL HT27L, an alpha that works at 90oC (195oF), optimum pH 5.4-6.5,
dosage 50ml per 100kg (220 lb) grains
- PROTEMYL GA150L, a gluco that works at 55oC (130oF), optimum pH 3.6-5.5,
dosage 100ml per 100kg (220 lb) grains
5. Yeast used: BYOSAL (which is a yeast and nutrients in twin pack),
Saccharomyces Cerevisiae wine yeast, 1 twin pack is for 100l (26 gal), so I
am using half at each batch
6. Since I want to avoid the mash getting thick, I add 1/2 of the alpha
(2.5ml) right at the beginning, adding another 2.5ml when reaching 85oC
(185oF)
7. Keeping temperature at 90oC (195oF) level for 90 min and after that
checking that conversion is complete with iodine test
8. Turning off the gas, waiting to cool down to 55oC (130oF), which is
usually over night (I might use the burner to get in back on the right
temperature)
9. Adding gluco-amylase 10ml, which starts conversion to sugars
10. Waiting till temperature drops at 30oC (85oF) before turning off the
agitator, which is helping more oxygen to be dissolved in the mash
11. Using a coarse strainer when transferring to the fermentation barrel,
so I'm partially removing the grain
12. Adding yeast, using airlock

[BentJar]

BENTS READERS DIGEST VERSION.

Put 2 1/2 gal. water in big pot.
add 5lb. of fine cracked corn
add 1 teaspoon of amylase

bring mash up to 190 degree
stir often, add backset
cool mash pot in sink with cold water to 160
add 1 tea spoon gluco, and 2 lbs fine cracked malt barley
stir in and place top on pot. cover with towels

Next day stain out some mash and check SG and do iodine test on paper towel
add melted sugar to bring it up to 1.65
When cool to 80 degree add 2 pkg. of red star bakers yeast
Ferment out to .99
Strain out grain, allow to settle, and run in still.
Good barley corn licker.

You can figure out the details but I declare unto all this make a mighty fine drop

[yakattack]

For my corn -

Currently 100lbs corn in 55 gallon drum.
Close to 40 gallons mash water.
Use hot water 120 degrees. Add corn and start injecting steam.

Around 140 add in sebhtl (high temp) from easy mash
Bring to 190 ( stirring occasionally untill 180 and then stirr every minute for a few seconds.

Hold at 190 overnight if its late or hold for a few hours. Top off fermentors to bring it to 152 degrees.
Add second sebamyl gl at 150. Fold for few hours and cool.or allow to drop slowly. Pitch yeast.

Easy no fuss cook. Just finished a batch and got great conversion.

Yak

[Brutal]

I have limited experience with this, but I'll bite.

For 40 gallons (of water added) ferment:
Add 30 gal tap water and 70-80lbs of slightly better than cracked corn to the fermenter, let sit for 1-2 days.
Fill electric keg boiler with 12 gal water and turn on heat.
While that's heating up install steam injection arm in fermenter and hook everything up.
Once it's producing steam add high temp enzyme, Sebstar from Pintoshine, when that runs out I'll switch to Opti-mash from Woodshed.
With Sebstar in the cool mash bring the whole barrel to just under 190, stirring more regularly as you approach 190.
Watch pH on the way up. Mines always fine but I like to be sure.
I run my 5500 watt electric full power. Depending on starting temp should take 2-3 hours.
Once at 190 I cut power, vent the steamer, and let it sit for a couple hours.
Now start adding backset to adjust the pH down to 5.2-5.3.
When temp hits 150 mix in the Gluco. Sebamyl/Pint Opti-mash/woodshed when its gone.
I only mix a couple times after that. I let it sit overnight, usually with a fan. I need to build a chiller.
Rehydrate, pitch, oyster shells, etc.

I am still new so don't take this as gospel. You can sure the hell make some likker like this though.

[freshwaterjellyfish]

Alpha Enzymes (High Temp)
Dannys wine supply (online)
with oats (flaked, rolled):
I use a few liters of back set, some distilled bring to a boil and pour over prewetted oats. Stir and bring to about 70C. Add enzymes and stir. I hold the temp for 20 min and toss the mash in to a pressure cooker and wrap a heat blanket around it and crash.
I transfer to a car boy add distilled to 5 gal and pitch yeast. I get a good violent ferment in 3-4 hrs and cross my fingers it doesn't blow. so far so good.
i got 3 stripping runs of oats begging for a spirit run.

[freshwaterjellyfish]

...i missed a few things ,(was getting tired and skipped the readers digest version)
the company that makes my amylase is http://www.stillspirits.com-dannys" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow always has it in stock.
i add two caplets of calcium carbonate(3000mg) (is that too much?-i dont have a pH meter yet) when using backset
i use one caplet of"beano" when i add the amylase, and one when i pitch yeast....get it at walmart.
the ferment finishes in a week-giver r take.
i siphon off what i can and save that, and add a gallon of distilled water w two lbs of sugar and add to the somewhat spent mash. pitch a bit of yeast (10 g). That way im not stilling a measly 3 gal at a time.
this thread is a great idea. ive had nothing but luck using enzymes. nothing wrong with employing a protien to make our job easier
....did you know saliva contains alot of amylase? we use it in histology lab often.

[tuckaloe]

Y'all have my attention. Two batches of Booners under my belt and the product is all it is purported to be....downside for me is that my absolute best OG has been 1.053. I've done a 2x through the Corona cracked corn(excellent flavor if not conversion) and 10lbs of coarse ground polenta in 5 gal H2o. It's easy, it's relatively fast, but I'm leaving a LOT on that table. Just not getting the conversion I need. I have a PH meter, I have backset, I do not have a Pinto stirrer, which I suspect factors in. Granted, I would hate to hear that thing run for that long...but I suppose there are alternatives as always.

Anyway, I need a process or protocol improvement to get my conversion improvement. SWMBO says it's time to go, I'll be back to detail my experiences asap....

[3d0g]

Granted, I would hate to hear that thing run for that long...but I suppose there are alternatives as always.

Don't have to go as far as the uber pinto rig. $25 spent at Harbor Freight for a corded 3/8 drill and a paint stirrer and you're good to go for 6-8 gallon mashes.

[shadylane]

Just my drunken opinion. JMDO
A corona style burr mill, thermometer, cheap drill, stirrer, steam injection and enzymes.
These are the tools needed for success. 10 or 20% malt in the grain bill will make the success more flavorful.

[NgrainD]

Hey guys,
I have the mile-hi ba, and ga 100 enzymes. I check my ph first, I have city water so it changes, but most of the time its right around 7. I mill my corn to a coarse meal. Poor 7gallons boiling water into tun, add 14 pounds of meal while mixing. Cover and wait a couple hours. When temp is at 167*F, add ba-100. Wait an hour, Adjust ph with backset out of fridge,helps lower temps, stir til it hits 140*F. Add ga-100. Let sit overnight,or until 85*F. Hydrate yeast, pitch.
Do you guys think we get any flavor carrying over from using the backset to adjust ph? I know it doesn't take a whole lot but it seems like I am starting to notice a flavor similar to how the backset smells, coming thru in my low wines. It seems to me I am not using enough to call it a sour mash, but is it kind of the same thing?

[tuckaloe]

Granted, I would hate to hear that thing run for that long...but I suppose there are alternatives as always.

Don't have to go as far as the uber pinto rig. $25 spent at Harbor Freight for a corded 3/8 drill and a paint stirrer and you're good to go for 6-8 gallon mashes.

Understood,thank you. Here then is my protocol question. I cook in a 10gal pot on an electric stove. For best conversion using the mud paddle and drill.....how long do I run that set up? IE, my polenta mash thickened like crazy at 170deg...added Sebstar HTL from Eazy Mash and reduced it to darned near water. Do I need to continue beyond this point? Seems the starches were well cleaved although this was not a very long time period, 20 minutes maybe.
I added a half gallon of 3.4 pH backet, dropped it to 4.4pH. Stirred a while and added my Sebstar AGL. Stirred a few times over the next half hour, dumped it into a fermentor bucket and wrapped a blanket around the bucket. In the am, it had cooled to 110, clear conversion, but testing showed 1.053. I'm not upset with this, way easier than my previous all grain attempts, but as stated, my protocol is leaving something on the table.

[3d0g]

Understood,thank you. Here then is my protocol question. I cook in a 10gal pot on an electric stove. For best conversion using the mud paddle and drill.....how long do I run that set up? IE, my polenta mash thickened like crazy at 170deg...added Sebstar HTL from Eazy Mash and reduced it to darned near water. Do I need to continue beyond this point? Seems the starches were well cleaved although this was not a very long time period, 20 minutes maybe.
I added a half gallon of 3.4 pH backet, dropped it to 4.4pH. Stirred a while and added my Sebstar AGL. Stirred a few times over the next half hour, dumped it into a fermentor bucket and wrapped a blanket around the bucket. In the am, it had cooled to 110, clear conversion, but testing showed 1.053. I'm not upset with this, way easier than my previous all grain attempts, but as stated, my protocol is leaving something on the table.

The enzymes work fast, as you've seen. Sebstar has a pretty narrow optimal pH range - did you check your initial mash before adding it? I set my strike water to 6 before heating, take it to boiling and then dump the corn in along with Sebstar. I can also 100% confirm that pushing the Sebstar pH range causes an efficiency hit. I'll mix every 15 minutes or so, mostly to facilitate cooling into Sebamyl range. Typically takes 90-120 minutes. Then I'll push the pH down to 5 and add the Sebamyl. More 15 minute mixing intervals until I get bored and then I'll button it up for an overnight rest. Come morning it's ready to pitch at 85F.

With 10 lbs of corn, you should be seeing 1.066 - 1.070, so I agree, you seem to be a touch low. I've been using flaked corn and getting excellent yield with it, but I also just got in a bag of cornmeal. Will be interesting to see if there's a difference...

[tuckaloe]

The enzymes work fast, as you've seen. Sebstar has a pretty narrow optimal pH range - did you check your initial mash before adding it? I set my strike water to 6 before heating, take it to boiling and then dump the corn in along with Sebstar. I can also 100% confirm that pushing the Sebstar pH range causes an efficiency hit. I'll mix every 15 minutes or so, mostly to facilitate cooling into Sebamyl range. Typically takes 90-120 minutes. Then I'll push the pH down to 5 and add the Sebamyl. More 15 minute mixing intervals until I get bored and then I'll button it up for an overnight rest. Come morning it's ready to pitch at 85F.

With 10 lbs of corn, you should be seeing 1.066 - 1.070, so I agree, you seem to be a touch low. I've been using flaked corn and getting excellent yield with it, but I also just got in a bag of cornmeal. Will be interesting to see if there's a difference...

3dOg, my water is 7.2-7.3 pH out of the tap. Same for the spring water I can get in the in the local state park. Interesting to me that you adjust yours to 6. What is your pH value after the addition of the corn? I have not adjusted my water at the beginning of the boil as adding the corn seems to have a pretty significant effect. First time around with the cracked corn, it dropped the pH from 7.2 to 5.7pH. I was surprised to see it move this much. I confess I neglected to check it on round 2 with the polenta.

I have worked with flaked corn previously and found it a wonderful if modestly expensive path. This is my first time with coarse ground corn meal....straining it is my next challenge

[3d0g]

Very strange tuckaloe. To my knowledge, corn doesn't have phosphates like malts which lower the mash pH. I see very little to no pH change when adding 100% corn. Now as conversion proceeds, pH does drop slightly. Are you cooling samples before taking the pH reading? Precious few meters can provide accurate readings at 170F mash temps.

[tuckaloe]

Very strange tuckaloe. To my knowledge, corn doesn't have phosphates like malts which lower the mash pH. I see very little to no pH change when adding 100% corn. Now as conversion proceeds, pH does drop slightly. Are you cooling samples before taking the pH reading? Precious few meters can provide accurate readings at 170F mash temps.

3dog, I can not speak to phosphates like malts, that is for certain. Woodshed mentioned in his Booners Casual All Corn recipe that starting with water of 7pH and adding corn should get you into the pH range for the Sebstar HTL. Let me see if I can find his wording.....here it is:

"No need to ph water if yours comes in at 7.
Heat water to 200f.
Add corn and stir to bring temp to 180. Check your ph. You want to be 5.6 > 6.5. The addition of the corn should get you there."

My experience matched this. Granted, my experience base is exactly one. And I have indeed been measuring pH at hot temps. I wondered if that would matter. Hmmm.

As the HTL works so quickly....stunningly so, really.....I suspect that my weak link might just be a lack of stirring after I add the Sebstar AGL. It's always late by then, I give it a swirl or two, wait 15-30 min, stir again, wrap the bucket in a blanket and hit the sack. In the am, it has clearly worked but as stated, not as well as I would have hoped based on conversion

I need to get a bit more methodical and take great notes I suppose.

[woodshed]

My all corn always drops the PH to around 6.0 if I start at 7.0. Today it was 5.9, perfect for Opti Mash. I like 5.0 to 5.2 for the Ultra Ferm addition.
IMO stirring is overrated so I do very little.

My corn supplier prefers soil to be 6.0 +/-. Corn will vary in PH depending on soil.

[3d0g]

And I have indeed been measuring pH at hot temps. I wondered if that would matter. Hmmm.

Not only does it matter, it'll wreck the bulb on your meter. For shits and giggles, I once took an old ATC pH meter that was rated to 120F and tried it on a 180F mash. It was a full 2 points off the 75F reading for the same solution. Even with ATC meters, most recommend getting samples as close to room temp as possible to improve the longevity of the probe.

[tuckaloe]

And I have indeed been measuring pH at hot temps. I wondered if that would matter. Hmmm.

Not only does it matter, it'll wreck the bulb on your meter. For shits and giggles, I once took an old ATC pH meter that was rated to 120F and tried it on a 180F mash. It was a full 2 points off the 75F reading for the same solution. Even with ATC meters, most recommend getting samples as close to room temp as possible to improve the longevity of the probe.

Thanks for this 3dOg. I wish not to sound contrary, just seeking confirmation of protocol/process.

Of course just because I bought a pH meter doesn't mean I know how to use one. And no where in the protocols in this thread do I gain any additional knowledge about that. I confess to being stymied by this.

So i need to take a 190 deg mash and cool some of the cooked corn sludge to room temp and take the pH at that point in time? Easy enough after the Sebstar HTL but I envision this being pretty difficult prior to adding the enzymes. It's THICK. How do I test that at room temp?

Likewise when it's cooled to 150ish and I add my backset to drop the pH to Sebstar AGL range.....I need to isolate, cool and test? Easier at this point in time as it's much less viscous but still, I've never heard this. Granted, I'm wading into water where I have previously feared to tread...but no one mentions this in their protocol. Does it just go without saying and I'm only now catching up?

Edit to say I just read about soil pH testing. Protocol there seems to be equal parts soil and distilled water, shake and let settle, and check the pH. Would this same process work with corn? I'd think not because you need to cook and pull the starch out of the corn....not sure this effects pH. Learning curve I suppose.