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25kg muscovado sugar
25-ish litres year-old fermented/rotted dunder
150-ish litres water
Bakers' yeast.
SG 1070 (ish!), more like 1068 maybe

I haven't added any nutrients, because the dunder had nutrients, in its former life as molasses/jaggery wash, and I believe the muscovado should have enough nutrients to support the yeast. The muscovado looks, smells and tastes very similar to jaggery. Quite salty!??
I can always jump in with nutrients if need be.
Dunder smells quite perfume-y, flower-y, quite nice, boiled (simmered) quickly before use.
Thoughts?
Anyone else here used muscovado?

Experiencing a bit of a sluggish ferment.
Added some nutrients, which will hopefully pick things up.
Added some fresh water, too, and gave the whole thing a good whisking to oxygenate it and freshen it up a bit.

I routinely boil fresh yeast to provide the nutrients for a rum fermentation. I wouldn't expect there to be much nutrients left in dunder whether aged or not.

I use lemon juice. 150 to 200 ml per 100 litres but you may have enough acid in the dunder.
Typically I also add Vitamin B and Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts)

I have used small quantities of Muscovado but I try to mainly use Demerara.

myles wrote:I routinely boil fresh yeast to provide the nutrients for a rum fermentation. I wouldn't expect there to be much nutrients left in dunder whether aged or not.

I use lemon juice. 150 to 200 ml per 100 litres but you may have enough acid in the dunder.
Typically I also add Vitamin B and Magnesium Sulphate (Epsom salts)

I have used small quantities of Muscovado but I try to mainly use Demerara.

Interesting, thanks Myles.
I had added nutrients to the wash which became the dunder, if you see what I mean, so I thought it should be fairly nutrient rich, including dead yeast.
In the event I have added some B vitamins, some Epsom Salts, and some tomato paste, and this morning she is chugging away quite happily.
I think perhaps I overshot with the SG, too, which I am usually inclined to have a little thinner than the norm, on account of our climate vs. fermentation times.

Why doesn't the yeast die in the dunder when it is being boiled ?

francis wrote:Why doesn't the yeast die in the dunder when it is being boiled ?

It does.
Indeed, it has been boiled twice, once during distillation, once during the sterilizing simmer before adding to the new ferment.

myles wrote:
I have used small quantities of Muscovado but I try to mainly use Demerara.

I would have thought Demerara would make very light rum. Is that what you are after?

In terms of how much dead yeast is in the dunder it depends a lot on how much you let the wash clear before running it.
A very clear wash will have little yeast left over

pulsetech wrote:In terms of how much dead yeast is in the dunder it depends a lot on how much you let the wash clear before running it.
A very clear wash will have little yeast left over

You have a good point.
Though I don't really wait for my washes to clear, I do get trub, which is probably good yeast food when recycled (and after being boiled).

Dan P. wrote:

myles wrote:
I have used small quantities of Muscovado but I try to mainly use Demerara.

I would have thought Demerara would make very light rum. Is that what you are after?

Still experimenting. For me it is easier to make a mostly Demerara based wash and add in some fancy catering grade treacle to the recipe to adjust the flavour. Aiming for gold rum so fairly light flavour.

Price wise for me, Demerara plus treacle is a good option.

I will see how it turns out, but I figured the dark muscovado would give a good rum taste but perhaps withoput quite the tarry, rubbery effect of full molasses. A slightly "darker" , fuller or maybe dryer taste tha the jaggery rum I've made in the past, though that was very nice.
Have you done pure dark muscovado, Myles?
I have already contaminated mine with 2nd generation molasses/jaggery dunder and will further pollute it with molasses/jaggery feints in the spirit run.

No, where I shop the cost of the muscovado makes it not viable compared to the other cane sugars. Would love to try panela but would probably need to import an entire pallet.

Trying to get 2000lb of SugarDaddy Columbian powder in 50lb bags through customs might be problematic though!!

myles wrote: Columbian powder in 50lb bags through customs might be problematic though!!

Now at 1020, still fizzing away merrily, I reckon another week to go, at least.

Now at 1005, I've started to strip. Very promising!

Okay; muscovado sugar (billington's) pot stilled is too light for me. It's a shade heavier than jaggery/panela, but only a shade. I've yet to do the full spirit run, and I'll be using molasses feints, so hopefully that will add some weight. Very nice, none the less, and a good yielder, especially in terms of heads/tails, i.e. a lot of useable spirits here.

Update from the crypt;

After about a year on oak, a little backsweetening with caramel and molasses, and a further year just sitting, this rum easily stands up to commercially produced navy style rum. Very robust, and I do believe that it has the special dunder taste of very traditional Jamaica rums e.g. Smith & Cross.

So far so good. However, even the slightest over-indulgence, and I mean slightest, anything over a small measure, and this shit gives me nightmares, wierd night fugues and various other sleep disturbances.

Very possibly the way I made the cuts, but unfortunately it is undrinkable.

I was aging my muscovardo rhum/cachaca but decided to blend it with my molasses rum.

It might contain a toxin that developed in the dunder. I have no idea what it could be though.

It may be "undrinkable" - but boy I bet it's Very "Saleable" in the right quarters !

Wierd tho' how many tiimes have you experienced the symptoms ? - Are you sure it's not just co-incidence ?

NZChris wrote:It might contain a toxin that developed in the dunder. I have no idea what it could be though.

that would carry though distillation ? Doubt it.
More likely the lightish flavour encouraged DanP to go too wide on his cuts, not a good idea when you are including feints in ya run. Seems you got two choices, either you blend it with a better cut product to lessen the head punch or re-run it. Both are hard to do when you are fond of the flavour but it would have to be pretty outstanding to be worth a codine chaser.

There is quite a bit of "stuff" put back in - in the ageing process tho' - whilst anything "biological" is dead, chemical toxins could pass thro -

I am reminded of an incident in either Dom Rep - or - Brazil (we argue as I type), when we were treated to a drink they called something like "mama Guano" - a tiny "single" in a plastic cup and we were both walking home but unable to remember anything about the journey. There were lots of roots and bark in the bottle, but Jeez how can a "single" do that ?

However the stuff in question seems to be "above board" in origin - Dunno !

The described symptoms are similar to mycotoxin poisoning, so I wouldn't be in a hurry to discount the possibility that some managed to make it into this rum. I sure as hell wouldn't be drinking any of it.

Interesting that there could be a potential of one of these toxins being volatile enough to come over during distillation. I'm having a hard time to believe it to be honest.

Could be the molasses that was added back in was infected or the aging containers were holding on to something nasty.

Has this happened more than once?

Yeah look mycotoxins are not known to be able to carry though distillation. The Japanese department of agriculture among others conducted experiments on 13 of the strains realistically likely to ever be in a ferment. These washes and mashes were deliberately infected and after distillation no mycotoxcin could be detected. I guess there is a very unlikely chance that there was a mycotoxcin producing mould was present in the molasses added but realistically I think poor cuts are much more likely, yes drinking it as is would be silly redistilling it would be no worries.

Pikey wrote:There is quite a bit of "stuff" put back in - in the ageing process tho' - whilst anything "biological" is dead, chemical toxins could pass thro -

I am reminded of an incident in either Dom Rep - or - Brazil (we argue as I type), when we were treated to a drink they called something like "mama Guano" - a tiny "single" in a plastic cup and we were both walking home but unable to remember anything about the journey. There were lots of roots and bark in the bottle, but Jeez how can a "single" do that ?

However the stuff in question seems to be "above board" in origin - Dunno !

More likely to be a alkaloid drug or drugs from potentially many plant species.
I am growing white sapote aka sleepy sapote, the fruit flesh is fine but the leaves, bark and seeds are a potent soporific.
Datura is growing as a weed on my creek bank and I live in plain old NZ not some tropical jungle.

johnnyv wrote:
..........More likely to be a alkaloid drug or drugs from potentially many plant species..........

Yeah I think we perhaps got that far

- Even brought a bag of The "Mama guano" ingredients in a plastic bag home with us (bought in a shop) - but never used as it was before this part of life.

Dan P. wrote:Okay; muscovado sugar (billington's) pot stilled is too light for me. It's a shade heavier than jaggery/panela, but only a shade. I've yet to do the full spirit run, and I'll be using molasses feints, so hopefully that will add some weight. Very nice, none the less, and a good yielder, especially in terms of heads/tails, i.e. a lot of useable spirits here.

Dan P. wrote:Update from the crypt;

After about a year on oak, a little backsweetening with caramel and molasses, and a further year just sitting, this rum easily stands up to commercially produced navy style rum. Very robust, and I do believe that it has the special dunder taste of very traditional Jamaica rums e.g. Smith & Cross..........

Dan, I'm assuming the change from "light" to "Robust" was down to your using molasses feints in your distillation - do you think ? - Were you getting that "heaviness" straight off the pipe - do you remember ?

Sorry we can't resolve your "tripping" experiences here, but I'm still wondering how many times you've tested it to make sure it's not just a "one off" - has anyone else had the same problem with it ?

Pikey wrote:

Dan P. wrote:Okay; muscovado sugar (billington's) pot stilled is too light for me. It's a shade heavier than jaggery/panela, but only a shade. I've yet to do the full spirit run, and I'll be using molasses feints, so hopefully that will add some weight. Very nice, none the less, and a good yielder, especially in terms of heads/tails, i.e. a lot of useable spirits here.

Dan P. wrote:Update from the crypt;

After about a year on oak, a little backsweetening with caramel and molasses, and a further year just sitting, this rum easily stands up to commercially produced navy style rum. Very robust, and I do believe that it has the special dunder taste of very traditional Jamaica rums e.g. Smith & Cross..........

Dan, I'm assuming the change from "light" to "Robust" was down to your using molasses feints in your distillation - do you think ? - Were you getting that "heaviness" straight off the pipe - do you remember ?

Sorry we can't resolve your "tripping" experiences here, but I'm still wondering how many times you've tested it to make sure it's not just a "one off" - has anyone else had the same problem with it ?

I'm quite sure it's not a "one off"! I'm a dedicated booze hound. "One off" is not how I roll.
Having said that, I'm pretty sure it is a question of cuts. It's similar when you cut something a bit queer and it gives you wierdness like "hot tummy" or makes you feel stoned, or makes your ears twitch, or whatever. Not mycotoxin.

Heaviness is from molasses feints, yes.
Somewhere I did a write up of an all molasses run I did, years ago when I was a more active distiller. It was too hard a drink for me. Dry and tarry. I wasn't man enough for it. My father-in-law, a dirty old Greek bastard, on the other hand, loved it.