Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

C'mon, der wo. If you were allowed to arbitrarily reject 40% of the data, you could change the conclusion of any study ever made about anything. Give me a random sample of temperatures in Berlin. Let me cherry pick the 60% of data that I like, and I'll prove that it is tropical; or arctic, whichever you like.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

If I can reject 40% of the data, then I'm a pretty decent lover. :)
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

X-axis is run time, so decreasing power to the right. One graph has the "higher alcohols" (these are fusels, right? Tails?) and the other does not so you can see their movement better. Those numbers seem incoherent to me.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

Like, there's a 37% reduction in aldehydes if you go from 55 to 60 minutes? Wut.
Or this: there's very little difference in higher alcohols when you run for 60, 70, or 100 minutes, but God Help You if it takes you 90!
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

IanD wrote: To be right about this, the accepted science says that there should be no difference. What little experimental evidence we have agrees with the science. The burden of proof should be on you if you disagree with it. Of course, the reason for this reversal is...
Key word here is "What little experimental evidence we have". When the burden of proof was on me to back up my statements I was able to do so with math. I believe Badmotivator agrees with me now that the cuts were so large as to result in a potential margin of error of 23%, that's a big margin of error. It now falls on the person making the claim to prove that their claims can be upheld with a more accurate test. Also the term "Full power" is extremely subjective. I also explained how to correct the inaccuracies of his conclusions and what my opinion is of what constitutes a significant amount.

IanD wrote:
S-Cackalacky wrote: Smearing being caused by running to hard (to fast) is an accepted fact here - just like the fact that water runs down hill.
It seems, however, to be an accepted fact based on hearsay with little or no scientific or experimental evidence behind it.
Yet you expect us to accept other statements based on little more than someone making up some graphs pointing at them and saying "Because I say so". Now I actually do have a 5500W element for my 4 gallon boiler, that's a lot of power to be throwing at a 3.5 gallon charge but if I collected that in 1 quart increments I could probably claim that there is no difference between full power and a slow run too but the fact is if I chose to collect in 50ml increments it just might prove something else.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

Der wo, I'm not sure that "incoherent" is the word you intended. Feel free to change it if you like.

I think your graphs prove my point. I don't see any clear trends there except for maybe the blue curve.

simulpost

EDIT: I'll give you the red curve too, if you'll explain to me the significance of "volatile acidity." I'm not familiar with that term.

EDIT EDIT: Wikipedia says volatile acidity refers to acetic acid. Also, the esterification of ethanol and acetic acid results in ethyl acetate.
Last edited by skow69 on Fri Dec 18, 2015 5:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

cranky wrote: Yet you expect us to accept other statements based on little more than someone making up some graphs pointing at them and saying "Because I say so". Now I actually do have a 5500W element for my 4 gallon boiler, that's a lot of power to be throwing at a 3.5 gallon charge but if I collected that in 1 quart increments I could probably claim that there is no difference between full power and a slow run too but the fact is if I chose to collect in 50ml increments it just might prove something else.
So do it, cranky. Let's quantify it and end the speculation.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

Badmotivator wrote:Like, there's a 37% reduction in aldehydes if you go from 55 to 60 minutes? Wut.
Or this: there's very little difference in higher alcohols when you run for 60, 70, or 100 minutes, but God Help You if it takes you 90!
I believe what we are beginning to work towards here is that stills have "sweet spots" where they have an ideal power input and collection speed. Unfortunately every still is going to have a different "sweet spot" where it will produce at it's most efficient rate. Blanket statements aren't going to cover everybody's personal experience. Given this eventual conclusion I think the twisted stream is still the best advice for a novice until such time as they become familiar with their still and skill level to feel comfortable experimenting with their still to find that Sweet spot.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

skow69 wrote:
cranky wrote: Yet you expect us to accept other statements based on little more than someone making up some graphs pointing at them and saying "Because I say so". Now I actually do have a 5500W element for my 4 gallon boiler, that's a lot of power to be throwing at a 3.5 gallon charge but if I collected that in 1 quart increments I could probably claim that there is no difference between full power and a slow run too but the fact is if I chose to collect in 50ml increments it just might prove something else.
So do it, cranky. Let's quantify it and end the speculation.
I think it would be too small a charge to prove much of anything, plus I would need to make up a 26 gallon batch, 2 stripping runs, combine that, measure the 2 charges etc... Then we run into the question of still sizes vs power, Is there a maximum power input where things change and now we have the question of the sweet spots etc...Then there is something I read by Paulinka that said something about heating up too fast entrapping heads in the hearts, or something like that. On top of that My fermenters are all full of apple cider and wine and rum wash right now, so I can't make up a 26 gallon wash as well as the little pot needing a full regiment of cleaning runs and I just don't have that much time to mess around with it.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

That's a lot of reasons to not run any trials, but it doesn't lend any credence to your arguments. It just means that someone needs to design experiments to address each of those troublesome questions. Empirical evidence requires effort while speculation is free. We expend the effort because evidence trumps speculation every time.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

skow69 wrote: Empirical evidence requires effort while speculation is free. We expend the effort because evidence trumps speculation every time.
Perhaps, but the evidence and tests must stand up to scrutiny to be considered valid. And that is exactly what my argument was. Some day I might be willing to conduct tests, but not any time soon.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

The Power Myth, as I see it, has (off the top of my head) three different avatars:
1) Cycling power is bad, because it causes smearing
2) Running slow will increase your ABV
3) Running slow reduces smearing, or causes compression of the fractions, or results in a wider hearts cut. Same thing.

I feel like I've already busted #2 pretty well, but I understand why people would disagree. And I thought I'd busted #3 also. Same problem.

There are some complications, of course, such as: how much could passive reflux or still geometry change the outcome in a pot still, given a change of power which most of us can produce. (i.e. not from 1 W/gal to 10000 W/gal, because nobody is ever going to do this. Reasonable range for 95% of us is probably between 200 and 1100 W/gal and that's really generous.)

What would it take for an experiment to be conclusively negative? Cranky has outlined a test which might prove the Power Myth correct if it is correct, but could it prove the Power Myth is incorrect? If I followed his recommendation and didn't find a significant difference between fast and slow, Cranky and others could say "Aha! You can't tell me, I KNOW I've seen it in my experience. Plus all the old distillers told me to do it this way. There are anomalies in your data too, see? And the samples were still too large. The power multiple wasn't large enough. There weren't enough samples tested. I don't trust the lab's equipment. I don't trust the researcher's equipment. You have to throw out outlier data points. You can't throw out outlier data points. My predicted outcome can be found within your margins of error. The researcher has a personal bias. He didn't control all the variables properly. And he missed the still's SWEET SPOT!"

If I ran the bourbon experiment again, controlled everything I could within reason, ran two spirit runs with a 3X power difference (my last one was 275 W/gal and 800 W/gal), took 10 samples from the same moments in each stream, had them tested by a GCMS lab, could a negative result from that be powerful enough evidence to end this? How many chemicals would we have to plot in for a negative result to really stick? I feel like the Power Myth has become a God of the Gaps kind of problem.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

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Badmotivator wrote: 2) Running slow will increase your ABV
I feel like I've already busted #2 pretty well, but I understand why people would disagree. And I thought I'd busted #3 also. Same problem.
this is the part of science i don't get. you did the experiment and posted the result. any given low temp sample vs high temp sample is about 3 points higher ABV. how can you say that has busted the myth?
That looks like it proved the point to me.

i'm going back to my original hypothesis that making whiskey is an art, not a science. if it was as easy as a+d=c, everyone would make the identical booze that tastes the same.

i'm going to stick with an accepted fact based on hearsay with little or no scientific or experimental evidence....and drink my mistakes :moresarcasm:
I finally quit drinking for good.

now i drink for evil.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

HDNB wrote:
Badmotivator wrote: 2) Running slow will increase your ABV
I feel like I've already busted #2 pretty well, but I understand why people would disagree. And I thought I'd busted #3 also. Same problem.
this is the part of science i don't get. you did the experiment and posted the result. any given low temp sample vs high temp sample is about 3 points higher ABV. how can you say that has busted the myth?
That looks like it proved the point to me.
See, I get what you're saying there. Your objection makes sense. But I'll give some context which will perhaps help you understand why I think what I do.

1) earlier in the thread I described an experiment within a single stripping run. I read the ABV, dumped the parrot and reduced power to an absolute minimum. When the parrot floated the hydrometer again, was it reading higher proof? Never. Not early in the run, not in the middle, not toward the end of the middle. So while people can try to say "oh, then the effect is just smaller than the resolution of that test", I view that as corroborating a basic physical truth about boiling mixed liquids: the mix determines the boiling temp, and the composition of the vapor.

Now as for the two-run test: the difference in the curves does not fit the shape you would expect if the myth were correct, it matches the curves you would expect if there was a difference in measurement, I.e. reading the top or middle of the meniscus vs. the bottom, reading slightly later than the correct sample moment, a slight accumulation of sample size errors, whatever. The differences were on the order of an average of 1.9% ABV in the first half and 2.4% ABV in the second half. I know my error bars are at least that big under the best circumstances.

In short, there shouldn't be a power-ABV relationship per chemistry, I couldn't find it in a single run, and any evidence that might be in the two-run test is hiding inside my error bars.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

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Everybody seems to be under the impression that I support the "power myths". I don't believe that I ever indicated any such thing. I was merely pointing out the problems with the tests and why I thought they were flawed. I am perfectly willing to accept proof if I feel that the "proof" doesn't have glaring flaws that I am expected to overlook in order to accept it as fact. In fact I often say "everything we know is wrong". I was asked to design an experiment that I thought would prove the hypothesis, so I did and suddenly everybody is jumping all over me for not accepting the flawed data. I was asked how much final product would I consider significant enough to consider a slower run worth the effort. I supplied an amount that I feel would be significant. It seems both sides here are unwilling to accept data as proof.

Perhaps when it comes to distilling a lot of it is just PFM otherwise it would be extremely easy to be a master distiller. Perhaps Odin has data to add to this due to his working with automation but it seems nobody actually wants to prove anything conclusively, they just want to point and shout.

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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

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cranky wrote:Everybody seems to be under the impression that I support the "power myths". I don't believe that I ever indicated any such thing.
cranky wrote:I believe what we are beginning to work towards here is that stills have "sweet spots" where they have an ideal power input and collection speed. Unfortunately every still is going to have a different "sweet spot" where it will produce at it's most efficient rate. Blanket statements aren't going to cover everybody's personal experience. Given this eventual conclusion I think the twisted stream is still the best advice for a novice until such time as they become familiar with their still and skill level to feel comfortable experimenting with their still to find that Sweet spot.
A sweet spot in terms of what, if not power? This looks like a contradiction to me. What distinction am I missing?
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

Keep yer shirts on guys. Distilling is definitely an art, but it can't hurt to understand some of the science of it also. I don't see anybody pointing and shouting, just people disagreeing about methodology and conclusions.

Badmo, 1) did you take your reading as soon as the parrot filled and bail on it? How much distillate accumulated? Maybe there is a lag while the still responds to the power input. We should replicate that with a substantial pause, maybe 10 or 20% of expected total.

Now as for the two-run test: It's too early to write it off that easily. We now have two trials with conflicting results. The solution is more trials.

To me it just means we're not done yet. Anyone who thinks it's a waste of time is welcome to leave, but I'm still curious.

I've got 2 carboys of sugarhead that will be done any day. I plan to mix 'em, split 'em and run them consecutively, one fast, one slow. We still don't have anywhere near enough trials to call anything statistically significant. If we learn something from each trial, maybe we will eventually figure out how to design the experiment that will actually prove something. That is the big challenge at this point.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

skow69 wrote:Keep yer shirts on guys. Distilling is definitely an art, but it can't hurt to understand some of the science of it also. I don't see anybody pointing and shouting, just people disagreeing about methodology and conclusions.
OK. Badmotivator will remain clothed throughout. :)
skow69 wrote:Badmo, 1) did you take your reading as soon as the parrot filled and bail on it? How much distillate accumulated? Maybe there is a lag while the still responds to the power input. We should replicate that with a substantial pause, maybe 10 or 20% of expected total.
Procedure: Running, running, running, take reading dump parrot lower power wait for fill (200 mL?) take reading. Result the same every time. ABV the same or lower. I totally invite everybody try their damnedest to get their simple pot still to show an increase in ABV at any point in any run in any way. And tell me how to do it. Theory says it won't happen, but who knows? The only wild card for me here is the unknown effects of passive reflux blah blah blah.

I really really really look forward to your test results. :) And I appreciate your caution and your steady hand.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by sungazer »

Once again I missed the main point of this topic your last post made it clear to me.

" I totally invite everybody try their damnedest to get their simple pot still to show an increase in ABV at any point in any run in any way. And tell me how to do it. Theory says it won't happen, but who knows? The only wild card for me here is the unknown effects of passive reflux blah blah blah. "

With a simple pot still I agree you are not going to increase the ABV in any significant amount by doing much. I did think that you were trying to mod that 12 inch Column you mentioned to create reflux. These guys seem to have got the results in a very compact design. http://www.amphora-society.com/The-Amph ... 1_p_9.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by der wo »

skow69 wrote:If you were allowed to arbitrarily reject 40% of the data, you could change the conclusion of any study ever made about anything.
Not, if there are good reasons to pick out some of the data:
I only wanted to consider the 55, 60 and 100min-run, because they finished those runs at a similar abv (44.69, 44.71 and 44.27%). The two other runs they finished at 42,72 and 45.97%.
It's a common practice in statistics to eliminate the most extreme results at both ends of the scale.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

Badmotivator wrote:
cranky wrote:Everybody seems to be under the impression that I support the "power myths". I don't believe that I ever indicated any such thing.
cranky wrote:I believe what we are beginning to work towards here is that stills have "sweet spots" where they have an ideal power input and collection speed. Unfortunately every still is going to have a different "sweet spot" where it will produce at it's most efficient rate. Blanket statements aren't going to cover everybody's personal experience. Given this eventual conclusion I think the twisted stream is still the best advice for a novice until such time as they become familiar with their still and skill level to feel comfortable experimenting with their still to find that Sweet spot.
A sweet spot in terms of what, if not power? This looks like a contradiction to me. What distinction am I missing?
Apparently you are missing what you quoted above. The "power myth" you keep referring to are
Badmotivator wrote:The Power Myth, as I see it, has (off the top of my head) three different avatars:
1) Cycling power is bad, because it causes smearing
2) Running slow will increase your ABV
3) Running slow reduces smearing, or causes compression of the fractions, or results in a wider hearts cut. Same thing.
I have no idea what you are missing. :problem:

Perhaps you missed this
skow69 wrote:Googe, are you saying that for rum running at 2lph was good, 3 was bad, and 4 was good? And for neutral 3lph was good, 3.5 -4 was bad, and 5 was good?
googe wrote:yep skow
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

Yeeaahhh, I kinda thought we had enough wrinkles for now. Let's put a pin in that, okay?

Der wo said, "It's a common practice in statistics to eliminate the most extreme results at both ends of the scale."

Sure, when n = 50. Not when n = 5.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by der wo »

But unfortunately n = 5. And two of the runs are much worse done than the other three.

I think, we have to manage with the infos we can get. That's what mankind is always doing. And that's also, what the guy did, who said first, that distilling speed affects the distillate.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by NZChris »

Differences in smearing may be from turbulence and/or circulation patterns between the surface and the takeoff point. This is affected by the shape of the chamber and the placement of elements, so any trial results will be skewed towards the design of that particular still. I would suspect that if I ran mine using the side placed element I would get more smearing than from using the center placed element because of the convection current in the chamber caused by the lopsided heating and the reflux due to heat loss through the insulation. Depending on various factors, the still loses 200W to 300W through the insulation.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

NZChris wrote:Differences in smearing may be from turbulence and/or circulation patterns between the surface and the takeoff point. This is affected by the shape of the chamber and the placement of elements, so any trial results will be skewed towards the design of that particular still. I would suspect that if I ran mine using the side placed element I would get more smearing than from using the center placed element because of the convection current in the chamber caused by the lopsided heating and the reflux due to heat loss through the insulation. Depending on various factors, the still loses 200W to 300W through the insulation.
Interesting thought Chris. I have run my big column unpacked with only the retainer plat installed which acted as a plate and retained about a half inch of liquid on top. The vapor rising through the liquid was actually swirling in a slow (ish) (I think) clockwise direction viewed from the top. I assumed this was caused by the shape of the keg but I can also see that the element location could contribute to this.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by NZChris »

If you can instigate some serious centrifugal action prior to the takeoff point, you might be able to drop enough of the entrained particles back into the boiler to make a difference. If that worked, higher speeds would work better than slow as the G force would be higher.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by cranky »

NZChris wrote:If you can instigate some serious centrifugal action prior to the takeoff point, you might be able to drop enough of the entrained particles back into the boiler to make a difference. If that worked, higher speeds would work better than slow as the G force would be higher.
Ever since I observed that swirling I have theorized that it was the cause of what I think of as a pressure wave or surging observed in smaller packed columns. With the packing in my 3.5" I.D. CM it doesn't happen which I assume is caused by the rapid change from 2" to 4" slowing down the vapor speed but in my 1.5" I can hear something very similar to what Skow observed in his packed column. The thought of centrifugal reflux is interesting.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by skow69 »

Badmotivator wrote:
skow69 wrote:Badmo, 1) did you take your reading as soon as the parrot filled and bail on it? How much distillate accumulated? Maybe there is a lag while the still responds to the power input. We should replicate that with a substantial pause, maybe 10 or 20% of expected total.
Procedure: Running, running, running, take reading dump parrot lower power wait for fill (200 mL?) take reading. Result the same every time. ABV the same or lower. I totally invite everybody try their damnedest to get their simple pot still to show an increase in ABV at any point in any run in any way. And tell me how to do it. Theory says it won't happen, but who knows? The only wild card for me here is the unknown effects of passive reflux blah blah blah.

Badmo, I was trying to suggest that this be run again, but this time wait until say, 800 ml comes off the pot (instead of 200 ml) before taking the ABV reading. Maybe you weren't giving the still enough time to complete its response to the heating change.
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by Badmotivator »

skow69 wrote:Badmo, I was trying to suggest that this be run again, but this time wait until say, 800 ml comes off the pot (instead of 200 ml) before taking the ABV reading. Maybe you weren't giving the still enough time to complete its response to the heating change.
Right on. I'd be happy to try this again the next time I'm stripping or spirit-ing. I won't be doing anything until after Christmas.

Anybody else going to try this? Can a simple pot still be made to produce a higher ABV at any point in the run just by turning down the power?
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Re: Speed of stripping & speed of spirit runs

Post by NZChris »

If you have the capability to shoot a jar back into the pot, you could run the same jar fast and slow with the same starting ABV in the pot. I don't, but it could be arranged.
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