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Ok, so I'm going to experiment with backset on the next ferment. Those of you who do it, what are some of the benefits and drawbacks. I am still using sugar washes, so maybe no real advantage until you switch to grains? How much are you guys pulling over from last run? I usually run down to about 20%, so I'm leaving some alcohol behind. Is that what we are after with the backset or are there some nutrients to be had? Again, maybe on sugar washes, no real gain.

Real advantages. Also in sugar washes:
- More taste transfer into ferment means more taste rich distillation;
- More nutrients for yeast;
- More sour so more esterification while fermenting (but check on pH to prevent pH-crashing).

Odin.

When you say sugar washes, are you meaning just sugar or a sweet feed or UJSSM wash? If just sugar then using backset won't really add anything. If SF or UJSSM then you need backset to make a sourmash wash. As Odin said, too much backset can increase acidity and stall the wash. Use just enough.

I would also use some oyster shells to avoid the ph crash. They won't raise your ph at all, but they will prevent a drop.

raketemensch wrote:I would also use some oyster shells to avoid the ph crash. They won't raise your ph at all, but they will prevent a drop.

+1 I toss a handful in. They are a great "buffer" for pH. You don't have to worry about adding too many, as they will only dissolve as needed when the pH drops. Pick up a bag from a local feed store for less than 10 bux and they'll last for a long time. Great in the garden too if your soil is acidic or you are like me and toss spent grains in for fertilizer.

Good call on the shells. I've read that over and over on the forums. I really need to pick up a bag.

I did some ferments of 100% grain-backset with sugar. I liked it, it was a surprise for me, that it tasted so clean and mature. I always added calcium carbonate (shells or other things, I use something from a gardening store), so the pH was absolutely no problem for the yeast, it fermented as fast as sugar washes without backset.

But if you want to increase the backset for AG, you run in problems with the pH, the enzymes are not nearly as tolerant with low pH than the yeast. And shells don't push it into a enzyme-friendly range. I had success adding the backset after conversion, but more than 25% backset was not possible, because the mash would be too thick at the beginning. So next time I will try out potassium carbonate to rise the pH of the backset to 5.5, so I can reuse the whole backset for the next wash (25% of the wash volume is stripped away, then I strain out the solids, I think so the next wash will contain 60% backset and 40% water).

Another thing about AG-backset:
It increases the yield! But not because of the alcohol in it. Did one of you tested once the SG of backset? A wash with 10vol% and FG 1.000 has after stripping around 1.020. That are unfermented sugars and the fresh enzymes will make it fermentable. When you use 25% backset, you will get 0.5-1vol% more.

Awesome. I've recently wondered about the possibility of a 100% backset wash with pH correction. Would possibly be a good way to get say a white rum, just add some raw sugar to a molasses+sugar ferment's backset with the necessary pH corrections... Currently doing some all bran but will definitely be trying in the future.

Backset is the mortar that builds a solid whiskey. Backset is the final cut. Used in moderation while mixing for the finished product it can offer a lot of depth.

Funny it is called backset. It plays forward. Consistency of product from adjusting PH to flavor in the final product

woodshed wrote:Backset is the mortar that builds a solid whiskey. Backset is the final cut. Used in moderation while mixing for the finished product it can offer a lot of depth.

Funny it is called backset. It plays forward. Consistency of product from adjusting PH to flavor in the final product

Are you saying you actually add backset to distilled alcohol for flavor?

^Also very interested to know - have considered doing this for rum.

woodshed wrote:Backset is the mortar that builds a solid whiskey. Backset is the final cut. Used in moderation while mixing for the finished product it can offer a lot of depth.

Funny it is called backset. It plays forward. Consistency of product from adjusting PH to flavor in the final product

This is an eyeopener, thanks for sharing

Also do you do that to white likker as well or only stuff that goes in the barrel?

Only to product destined for the barrel.

woodshed wrote:Only to product destined for the barrel.

Thank you for your opinion Woodshed!

Thanks Shed, have to give it a go with the next batch

Is that allowed by the TTB if it isn't labeled as a flavored whiskey?

I am religious about my backsetting.

in my minds eye i see it as magnifying the essence of flavinoids that have concentrated as the generations build up.

as i have been savoring my molasses these days and the rummy flavors are showing up a little more, i feel it is in part due to the multi generational waves of backset that i have been rolling back into the next Wash.

I have in the past added a little molasses to my white rum, and have actually considered experimenting with a little backset into the white with a little molasses and then set on some Oak and see how the flavors shape up...

I've had great success with using dunder (backset) through the rum process. It doesn't take much maturity(of the rum.....not me.lol) to see how it plays a role in the overall flavour. It's my experience with rum that brought me here, as I think about my AG irish whiskey. I've currently got some backset cooling in the still. I guess I'll be saving some for each step of that too.

Thanks!

i have been using backset for cooling and ph adjustment for the SEB GL addition on my low malt whiskey with great success.
about 1.5gallons to 10 gallon of water and 30lbs of grain.

i have tried a smidge of dunder, molasses a piece of toffee and an inch of vanilla bean on a finished dark rum. it needed 2 years on wood, i like now...tastes just like...rum

have not tried on finished whiskey yet, but sounds like an experiment is fast approaching!

On a sugar head wash, I use around 5% or less of backset for the boiled yeast nutrient.
On a mash, I use around 10 or 15% backset as needed for pH adjustment for the enzymes or malt.
JMHO, yeast doesn't like too much backset

DeepSouth wrote:Is that allowed by the TTB if it isn't labeled as a flavored whiskey?

As I read it yes.

Backset and backslop every run ...Maybe once a year start from scratch ...
Few teaspoons of nutrient powder and never worry bout ph again.

Be sensible with the amount of backset / dunder and you shouldn't have a problem. It adds a lot of flavour used over a lot of generations. Less that 20% of wash volume will get good results from my experience, more and you are looking for trouble and are going to start having PH problems.

I remember, I have read, Jim Beam (I think that means not only JB but also Knob Creek, Baker's and a few other) use 41% backset. It was here:
http://homedistiller.org/grain/wash-grain2/sourmash" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow
"They range from 20 - 25% at many distilleries to 32% at Maker's Mark to an astounding 41% reported for Jim Beam!"
Of course we could rise the pH in a enzyme friendly range, with sodium carbonate for example. And there is very low-pH tolerating glucoamylase, we could add. So this problem is manageable.
But what about taste? Noone tried the range of 41% or more?

der wo wrote: But what about taste? Noone tried the range of 41% or more?

been to close to that... taste was fine on that one, not hugely different.

the next one stalled, and i added some well water and a bit of fresh yeast to get it going again. have not tried since then, but i have been using a bit of oyster shell lately when i pitch so maybe it's time to try again.

Hey Shed, this is the first I've heard of anyone blending backset into their final whiskey cuts. Most interesting. Bet it doesn't take much. Do you do anything to your backset before you use it? Such as letting it sit and settle a bit to pick from the top or bottom layers?

I always save the last 2 gallons out of the still.

Very little is needed for final cuts. A matter of taste of course. An ounce per gallon is a good start.

HDNB wrote:i have been using backset for cooling and ph adjustment for the SEB GL addition on my low malt whiskey with great success.
about 1.5gallons to 10 gallon of water and 30lbs of grain.

i have tried a smidge of dunder, molasses a piece of toffee and an inch of vanilla bean on a finished dark rum. it needed 2 years on wood, i like now...tastes just like...rum

have not tried on finished whiskey yet, but sounds like an experiment is fast approaching!

Two years, that's some serious patience right there.

The few times that I've tasted backset, it's struck me as a horrible flavor that stays with me for hours. Diluted and aged, maybe less so. I use 15% to start each batch, and keep some gen 4 backset in the freezer for whenever I have to start over.

added 2 tsp of backset to 1.5l of freshly cut Irish-ish AG, time will tell if I can pick up any difference in flavor against the control one without backset.
Either way, should be a cool experiment.

Thanks for the suggestion Shed

While mashing rye I did some experiments rising the pH of backset. My backset is not very sour, probably because I buffer all my mashes with calcium carbonate. It has pH 4.2. Without calcium carbonate and soft water 3-3.5 would be normal I think.
Of course I did not find out a mathematic formula. But for a rough guide here the results:

-1l backset pH 4.2 had after adding 1ts (heaped) sodium carbonate pH 4.9.
I stopped my experimenting with this and switched to potassium carb, because I have read, yeast does not like sodium.

-1l backset pH 4.2 had after adding 1ts potassium carbonate pH 6.
-This liter 1:1 mixed with untreated backset result in pH 4.8

-7.5l water + 3.5l backset had pH 4.8. After adding 2ts potassium carb it was 5.9.
-Adding and liquefying 3kg rye flour (total 13l now) didn't change the pH. After adding 1tsp citric acid the pH was 5.5.