Calculating Diastatic Power?

[moered]

Is it possible to calculate the diastatic power of a malt from the parameters shown in this chart? I have emailed the company enquiring as to the diastatic power of their malts, but had no reply. Is there a formula to work this out? I want to work it out so that I can calculate my mash bill.

[UrToopid]

I don't believe this chart is exactly what you need to calculate Diastatic Power of a particular malt. A chemist might be able to derive some formula, but there are easier methods to determine DP. I don't have an extensive list of DPs for very many malts, but I have learned a few. Its important to remember that the DP of a particular malt INCLUDES its own weight and you divide the total by anywhere from 30 to 60...I use 60 to be conservative. Also, when malting, remember that the DURATION of the malting rest is EQUALLY as important as the DP of that malt. 1.5 to 2 hours at a temp between 143 and 153 is CRUCIAL to reaching complete starch conversion. I have consistently been reaching 10-13 % PABV with all grain (AG). Your mash will become like rubber cement at those levels, but fret not, once you add a small portion of pre-malt, it will thin out just fine.. just keep a drill paddle going full time to avoid scorching. I recently devised a formula of 6 lbs of distillers malt at a DS of 260 and 6 lbs of malted rye at a DS of 90.. breaks down to the distillers being able to handle 4.3:1 (about 20.8 lbs of corn plus its own weight of 6 lbs of Distillers), plus 1.5:1 (3 lbs of corn plus its own weight of 6 lbs of malted Rye). This breaks down to apx. 24 lbs of corn plus 6 lbs of Distillers Malt, and 6 lbs. of Malted Rye in apx. 13 gals of water. I test with iodine and water on a paper towel blotter and get absolutely zero starch (no blue) after 1.5 hours. My S.G is always 1.9 or better. If you still show blue after 1.5 to 2 hours, put a lid on your mash tun and let it sit overnight and re-test. I guarantee it will finish at 100 % conversion. BTW, in order to measure the S.G. you will have to strain your mash sample and once you have 8 oz. you may have to add 4 oz. of water to thin it enough to float the hydrometer.. this means that for apx. 16 gals of mash, you will have to add 8 gals of water or else extrapolate the S.G to equate the diluted sample. It will literally be too thick to measure directly. this is known as an inferred measurement. Fear not.. if you decide to NOT dilute your mash, it WILL thin out fine once you ferment. Don't be afraid to add water to thin the mash though.. it might take another run to use all of your mash, but you will Still get ALL of the Alcohol out. Water is the best, cheapest Solvent in the universe, and it strips out easily enough.

I may disagree with what you have to say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it"

[BayouShine]

http://www.brewingwithbriess.com/Assets ... alysis.pdf

This is what I use. It'll give you a good baseline on where to start when making a recipe.

[moered]

thanks UrToopid, sounds like you really know your stuff. Guessing you were an avid all grain home brewer before coming to this hobby! that is a lot of info to take in.

Thanks for that link too Bayou!

[rager]

http://beersmith.com/blog/2010/01/04/di ... your-beer/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?ti ... Conversion" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

read to your eyes bleed

[ShineonCrazyDiamond]

Don't reinvent the wheel. Overcompensate, but sick too the averages.

Here is a pretty good online list of grain dp.

http://www.brewunited.com/grain_database.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;" rel="nofollow

[Garouda]

This is an old post that I did not notice earlier. In fact, it's easy.
The diastatic power of a malt is expressed in Lintner degrees.
A 2 rows base Barley malt has on average a diastatic power of 140 °Lintner, for those who make Bourbon, take 105 °Lintner for malted Rye, and 120 °Lintner for malted Wheat. Unmalted Corn is zero, it's obvious.
The above-mentioned link goes to a poor database, this one is better...https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/products/base-malts/
Anyway, the diastatic power can significantly vary from one supplier to another, check their own datasheets...
Take a classic recipe, this one for example: 7.5 lbs of corn, 1lb of malted Barley and 1.5 lbs of malted rye.
7.5 x 0 + 1 x 140 + 1.5 x 105= 297.5 °Lintner, your grain bill = 10 lbs, the result is 297.5 ÷ 10 = 29.7 °Lintner/lb.
It's about enough, the target is >= 30°L/lb, but most people recommend >=40 °Lintner/lb to be on the safe side.
This can be achieved by this modification:
2lbs of Rye + 1.5 lbs of Barley + 7 lbs Corn= 10.5 lbs
2 x 105 + 1.5 x 140 =420 °L.
420°L. ÷ 10.5lbs = 40° Lintner/lb
Now, you can use all possible combinations depending on the desired taste.
Like this:
0.5 lb Wheat + 2 lbs Rye + 1.5 lbs Barley + 8 lbs Corn = 12 lbs (all malted except for the corn)
0.5 x 120 + 2 x 105 + 1.5 x 140 + 8 x 0 = 480°L.
480°L. ÷ 12lbs = 40 °Lintner/lb
Remark: malt from Europe can express their diastatic power in Kolbach degrees or Windisch-Kolbach (°WK)
The conversion can be done as follows:
°Lintner = (°WK+16)/3.5
°WK = 3.5 x °Lintner – 16

[8Ball]

A grain bill with at least 30% malts @ 2.25 pounds per gallon will also get you there. Toss in some enzymes for insurance if you have them.

[Garouda]

A grain bill with at least 30% malts @ 2.25 pounds per gallon will also get you there. Toss in some enzymes for insurance if you have them.

Sorry, but this does not make that much sense to me... what malt? An American 2 rows Barley malt has got a diastatic power of 140 °Lintner, a six rows 160 °Lintner and the Belgian Castle Malting Pilsner 250 °WK or 76 °Lintner... They are all so called 'base malts'...
Indeed, it works with an American 2 rows malt: 30 x 140 ÷ 100 = 42,
I'm using the Belgian Pilsner malt I have at home to brew beer, let's do the maths...
30 x 76 ÷ 100 =22.8

Of course to make alcohol, it isn't as relevant as in beer brewing, you can always play with α-amylase, glucoamylase and sugar, but the title of this topic is "Calculating Diastatic Power?", that's why I explained the right way to do so.

[shadylane]

Taking the malt producers word for it is one way.
But how can a DIY maltster measure the diastatic power of his malt?

[Steve Broady]

But how can a DIY maltster measure the diastatic power of his malt?

Could you test a sample with a known quantity of starch and measure the resulting gravity?

[Garouda]

The Lintner degree is in use because a method to calculate the diastatic power was developed by Lintner in 1886. There are several methods but beyond our ability, like the R.J. Henry method (Australia, in the 80's). That method requires some specific chemicals that can be hardly procured, like the p-hydroxybenzoic acid hydrazide (PAHBAH), sodium borohydride, etc. There are other methods like the Malt-6 diastatic power method and the Maltose Value method, but again, these require some lab skills, utensils and chemicals. The maltsters use automatic devices that produce a comprehensive analysis of their malts. (e.g. Novel Automated Method to Measure Malt Diastatic Power, using the Gallery Plus Beermaster Automated Discrete Photometric Analyser).
I'm not going to malt myself, but if it was the case I would do like Steve suggests, take some small samples of my malt, mix it with some corn starch at various proportions and see how it works (iodine test-SG), and compare with a commercial malt where the DP is known.

[Dutch41]

This is an old post that I did not notice earlier. In fact, it's easy.
The diastatic power of a malt is expressed in Lintner degrees.
A 2 rows base Barley malt has on average a diastatic power of 140 °Lintner, for those who make Bourbon, take 105 °Lintner for malted Rye, and 120 °Lintner for malted Wheat. Unmalted Corn is zero, it's obvious.
The above-mentioned link goes to a poor database, this one is better...https://www.brewingwithbriess.com/products/base-malts/
Anyway, the diastatic power can significantly vary from one supplier to another, check their own datasheets...
Take a classic recipe, this one for example: 7.5 lbs of corn, 1lb of malted Barley and 1.5 lbs of malted rye.
7.5 x 0 + 1 x 140 + 1.5 x 105= 297.5 °Lintner, your grain bill = 10 lbs, the result is 297.5 ÷ 10 = 29.7 °Lintner/lb.
It's about enough, the target is >= 30°L/lb, but most people recommend >=40 °Lintner/lb to be on the safe side.
This can be achieved by this modification:
2lbs of Rye + 1.5 lbs of Barley + 7 lbs Corn= 10.5 lbs
2 x 105 + 1.5 x 140 =420 °L.
420°L. ÷ 10.5lbs = 40° Lintner/lb
Now, you can use all possible combinations depending on the desired taste.
Like this:
0.5 lb Wheat + 2 lbs Rye + 1.5 lbs Barley + 8 lbs Corn = 12 lbs (all malted except for the corn)
0.5 x 120 + 2 x 105 + 1.5 x 140 + 8 x 0 = 480°L.
480°L. ÷ 12lbs = 40 °Lintner/lb
Remark: malt from Europe can express their diastatic power in Kolbach degrees or Windisch-Kolbach (°WK)
The conversion can be done as follows:
°Lintner = (°WK+16)/3.5
°WK = 3.5 x °Lintner – 16

Garouda, thank you for the post. I fully understand the theory behind adding up the various Lintner then dividing that number by the pounds of grain used. I got it up to that point however, if I end up with a 40* Lintner, how do I figure out how many gallons of mash I can make with that. In other words, 40* Lintner is great but I'm sure I can't add 100 gallons of water to that to make it work. I've been stuck on this part for quite some time. Thank you...

[Garouda]

In other words, 40* Lintner is great, but I'm sure I can't add 100 gallons of water to that to make it work. I've been stuck on this part for quite some time. Thank you...

Indeed, if the mash is too light, too thin, the enzymes will be too diluted and less effective. There's a rule in mashing that says you can add water up to 3.5litres/kg, but we are not brewing beer and want to produce alcohol, in that case, the value could be 2 litres/kg. The usual range is 2.5litres to 3.5 litres/kg of grain in beer brewing, here I would put it at 1.7 litres to 2.2 litres/kg grain, this referred to as the grist ratio or the mash water to grain ratio. In US measures, it's about 1.25 quart of water to 1 pound of grain for beer, the range in our hobby is then from 0.7 to 1 quart of water per pound of grain.
There are other parameters to take into account depending on the size of your vessels like the water absorption ratio (1L/kg), the water retention ratio or the volume occupied by the grain itself (grain displacement,0.7L./kg). In beer brewing, one also takes the contraction after cooling into account, about 4%. I do not really bother because I usually make 70 litres batches and I have two SS pots Ø50 x H 50cm or 98 litres each.