The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

I'm gearing up to make my own Badmotivator barrels. I snagged a couple of used 8 qt Instant Pot inner liners. They're slightly shorter and wider than an 8 qt bain marie, so they should give me a sa/v ratio around 45 in²/gal, and, being intended as pressure cookers, I think I can reasonably expect them to handle the pressure of an expanding barrel head without cracking. But I find myself thinking I will need to make more barrels in the future, and finding a steady supply of used Instant Pot liners may be a tall order. I will most likely turn to bain maries eventually. I'm just curious which brands of bain marie people have used. I see Badmotivator uses Thunder Group, but there are a zillion other brands out there... Winco, Vollrath, Choice, etc... Which brands have been used by people in this thread? Are there any I should steer clear of?

I've also thought about picking up some used corny kegs. I can find those online, all day, for $25 each. I could zip one down the middle, put a head in each half, and get two barrels out of it. I could also cut a section out of the middle and put two heads on it for a higher sa/v. Hypothetically, I could turn a pin lock keg (9 in diameter) into two barrels -- a two headed barrel with a volume of 2.3 gallons and a sa/v of 55, and a one headed barrel with lower volume and sa/v. Any thoughts on that?

Cheers!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

The corny keg idea is interesting. even if you just cut the top and put a head it in for long aging.

I have used the Winco 8 qt bain Maries with no problems. But that is only three examples so far
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by NormandieStill »

I look into this from time-to-time, but bain marie inserts just aren't a thing here in France (or UK the last time I looked). My best equivalent seems to be wine coolers (the stainless buckets full of ice that your bottle of white wine will stand in at a restaurant). They seem to be available at a reasonable price, but I've no idea how well they'll stand up to the press-fit lid. For the time being I'm stuck with glass.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by higgins »

I'm partially thru the process of making 3 BadMo clones after purchasing my first one. I'm using the Winco bain maries. The Vollrath are much thicker SS and are priced accordingly. I have not yet fitted the lids.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

dovregubben wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 9:47 am , being intended as pressure cookers, I think I can reasonably expect them to handle the pressure of an expanding barrel head without cracking.

Cheers!
The liners hold no pressure. they are completely in the pressure vessel.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

Thanks for the info subbrew and higgins!
subbrew wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:00 am The corny keg idea is interesting. even if you just cut the top and put a head it in for long aging.
I was thinking along similar lines for the bottom half. Upon reflection, if I use a ball lock keg (8.5" diameter), I would have a little more wiggle room. I could cut a cylinder out of the top half, put two heads in it, and make a 2 gallon barrel with a similar sa/v to a bourbon barrel. Then I could put a single head in the bottom half for a sa/v similar to a hogshead or puncheon, for long aging.
subbrew wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 6:42 pm The liners hold no pressure. they are completely in the pressure vessel.
I measured the wall thickness of the Instant Pot liner with a micrometer and gauge pin. It's 0.022" (0.56mm) thick. I also measured a one quart bain marie I had in the kitchen. I have no idea what brand it is or where it came from. It's also 0.022" thick. So the Instant Pot liners should perform as well as a bain marie, for the purpose of holding a barrel head. I only paid $30 for two of them, including shipping. I wouldn't pay retail price.
PXL_20220909_173934872.jpg
The biggest difference between a bain marie and an Instant Pot liner is the laminated bottom. It's about 3/16" (4.76mm) thick.
PXL_20220909_174153585.jpg
Incidentally, the internet tells me corny kegs have a wall thickness of 0.034" (0.87mm). They're rated for 60 psi. Pressure cookers generally only go up to 15 psi. Maybe I'm onto something?

I just found a web site with 8 qt Thunder Group bain maries for $12. I'm going to order a few. I'll report the wall thickness after they arrive.https://www.katom.com/438-SLBM006.html
NormandieStill wrote: Thu Sep 08, 2022 11:12 am ...bain marie inserts just aren't a thing here in France (or UK the last time I looked). My best equivalent seems to be wine coolers...
Have you considered cookware? I don't know if there are Instant Pots in France, but surely there are at least similar pressure cookers? Maybe a rice cooker or pressure canner would work? You might check Craigslist or other free stuff websites. I often see people giving away broken kitchen appliances. It's worth a shot. Or you could just use any old stainless steel stockpot. I would be cautious of ones with riveted handles, as that could be a potential leak, but there are plenty out there with welded handles. Maybe hit the local thrift stores and see what you find?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by NormandieStill »

dovregubben wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:20 am Have you considered cookware? I don't know if there are Instant Pots in France, but surely there are at least similar pressure cookers? Maybe a rice cooker or pressure canner would work? You might check Craigslist or other free stuff websites. I often see people giving away broken kitchen appliances. It's worth a shot. Or you could just use any old stainless steel stockpot. I would be cautious of ones with riveted handles, as that could be a potential leak, but there are plenty out there with welded handles. Maybe hit the local thrift stores and see what you find?
I'm pretty good at spotting stuff that I can repurpose, but I've not found anything with similar proportions. Casseroles (stove pots?) tend to be too shallow. I've looked at glassware as well, with a plan to use threaded rod to tension a wooden lid onto a container, but the openings tend to be too small. It's not an urgent thing, but if I would also like for it to be scalable, meaning I need to be sure that my pot isn't a one-off and that I can get more for reasonable costs.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

NormandieStill wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 11:28 am Casseroles (stove pots?) tend to be too shallow.
I think what is referred to as a casserole in France is what we would refer to as a saucepan in the US. Is that correct? I was thinking more along the lines of a pot used to make stock, such as this one:
image.png
The one pictured costs $35 new. A bit more expensive than a bain marie, but not too bad, in my opinion. That would give you a sa/v slightly lower than a US whiskey barrel. If you're looking for a lower sa/v, maybe just leave a little headspace in the barrel and rest it head up, at a slight angle?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

One advantage of the bain marie is that it has a slight taper (you can stack them, one inside the other). I had one that would not seal. I think I cut the top a few hundredths too small. But I pushed the top in another inch and it sealed. with a stock pot or corny you would not have the taper. You would need to be more precise on cutting and seating the top.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hawkwing »

Just curious does the Bain Marie ever split when the wood swells?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

I have only made three and had no issue with splitting. In Badmo's video he did show one that had split, but that would be out of several hundred
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

subbrew wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:11 pm ...with a stock pot or corny you would not have the taper.
Most stock pots have a very slight taper. Nearly all drawn sheet metal products have a small draft angle, to facilitate removal from the die. That is not the case with a corny keg, which is a rolled cylinder welded to two stamped ends. For corny kegs, I think I'd put a slight bevel on the heads, to facilitate installation. Hopefully it won't be enough to compromise the seal. It has also occurred to me that the seam where the cylinder is welded might also be a potential leak. I'll just have to build some and see. :D
hawkwing wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:17 pm Just curious does the Bain Marie ever split when the wood swells?
subbrew wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 12:59 pm In Badmo's video he did show one that had split, but that would be out of several hundred
Others in this thread have also reported splits, but as far as I've read none of them mentioned which brand they were using.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by jonnys_spirit »

I ordered three badmo’s and filled them with water when they arrived and i was making product to fill them. One ended up splitting after a week or so and he replaced it without any issues so i ordered a 4th right away to help offset his shipping cost which he covered without even asking. Bad ass customer service so i like to call em badassbadmo’s.

Can’t say enough good about the product not to mention Ben’s superb support. Not a hint of any other splits btw.

Three BadMo’s are just over five gallons so the size is perfect to fill a single from one 15’ish gallon spirit run with some topup in glass for the inevitable “testing”.

Cheers!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator »

I would reply to each of the last awesome comments but that would make for a messy read. But this whole latest convo about the cans is very interesting.

Thunder Group and Choice and Winco (I think) all have a wall thickness of 0.6mm, which has an empirical failure rate of about 1.5%. This is not a deal-breaker, and most folks making their own shouldn’t worry much about using them. It irritates me though; I really have a horror when I think about a customer losing their spirit, and it has happened to one fellow that I know of. (Most splits are discovered before the barrel is filled with spirits.) Plus, I’m in a position that enables me to source exactly what I want rather than “make do” with something close.

So I am talking to a few manufacturers in China and India about making basically the same shape, but with wall thicknesses of 1.2 mm. Samples are on their way right now. I figure that should bring the split rate down to basically zero. And since I can order hundreds at a time, direct from manufacturer, the cost will only be slightly higher than my current sources of standard cheap Bain Marie inserts are.

Because I really believe in helping folks to make their own, and because so many people report that they can’t find a decent source of cans for whatever reason, I think I will probably offer to sell the cans too. No promises, but for now the idea appeals to me.

I love the idea of trying other vessels, too! Pressure cooker inserts, chopped cornies, etc. Awesome! If anyone tries them I hope they will share their findings. It could really help others to see more options.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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Badmotivator wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:33 pm I love the idea of trying other vessels, too! Pressure cooker inserts, chopped cornies, etc. Awesome! If anyone tries them I hope they will share their findings. It could really help others to see more options.
Perfect timing . My "mini" mini one arrived and I got it finished up.
20220910_101747(1).jpg
.

Works beautifully . Was genuinely surprised that it stopped dripping after a few hours . It's only small, holds approx 2ltr but fine for smaller producers or simply as a trial run before making a big one.
I used an old barrel stave as it was the easiest way for me to get the "right" wood. Hence the staining.

Can't comment on how it performs with spirit as I don't actually have anything to put in it yet 🙄. Still undecided WHAT I want to put in it .

The link again for the pot if anyone in the UK wants to make a baby one. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/2-5L-Thicken ... 635-2958-0

Still working on finding a suitable 5-6 Ltr alternative availible over here.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

Badmotivator wrote: Fri Sep 09, 2022 8:33 pm So I am talking to a few manufacturers in China and India about making basically the same shape, but with wall thicknesses of 1.2 mm. Samples are on their way right now.

[...]

I love the idea of trying other vessels, too! Pressure cooker inserts, chopped cornies, etc. Awesome! If anyone tries them I hope they will share their findings.
I am looking forward to seeing your new cans, BadMo, and perhaps ordering some down the road! :ebiggrin:

I have a line on some inexpensive corny kegs. I'm also gathering supplies to make a keg cutting fixture, so I can make straight, clean cuts. But my first barrels will be the Instant Pot liners. I'll post my progress to this thread. It might be a while though... I have to finish a few things around the house before I get a hall pass to go work on hobby projects. 🙄
Knife_man wrote: Sat Sep 10, 2022 1:39 am My "mini" mini one arrived and I got it finished up.

[...]

Still working on finding a suitable 5-6 Ltr alternative availible over here.
That mini looks great, Knife_man!

Have you considered any of the ideas mentioned above (pressure cooker inserts, stock pots, etc...)?
Last edited by dovregubben on Sun Sep 11, 2022 2:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Knife_man »

dovregubben wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 10:35 am That mini looks great, Knife_man!

Have you considered any of the ideas mentioned above (pressure cooker inserts, stock pots, etc...)?
Thanks

As I've said before I've spent hours searching for every type of stainless receptacle I can think of.

Everything comes up short wrong size, too much taper , completely wrong shape (square) , wrong proportions ( wide and flat) , inward facing lip on top , crimped button instead of one piece , riveted on handle etc etc .

I'm probably being too picky but I want it to be right I'm sure that the right receptacle exists and can be gotton here at a reasonable price I just need to find it.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

Knife_man wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 11:35 am ...I'm sure that the right receptacle exists and can be gotton here at a reasonable price I just need to find it.
What about something from Asia? I just found this page on Aliexpress. These come in a variety of sizes, and shipping isn't too bad. I don't know how much shipping to Europe would be, but, like, isn't Europe closer to Asia than North America is?

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256804204841381.html

Oh! It let me change my location to UK. It says free shipping!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker »

Someone used sections of stainless pipe.
Expanded slightly at the ends.
With, I think, 'barrel ends' at EACH end...

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Knife_man »

dovregubben wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 7:45 pm
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/3256804204841381.html

Oh! It let me change my location to UK. It says free shipping!
I've come across those a few times and 1) the proportions are wrong almost twice as wide as tall 2) I'd be worried that fitting the top would be impacted by the stamped measurement marks and/or it wouldn't seal properly around them.

I know I'm being super picky here.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

Knife_man wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:49 pm 1) the proportions are wrong almost twice as wide as tall
That's actually what attracted me to the Instant Pot liners in the first place. BadMo's bain marie inserts have a sa/v close to a puncheon. The 8 qt instant pot liner (which is the same dimensions as the 8 liter one on Aliexpress) gives you a sa/v close to a hogshead. The 6 qt version would give you a sa/v close to a US whiskey barrel.
Knife_man wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 8:49 pm 2) I'd be worried that fitting the top would be impacted by the stamped measurement marks and/or it wouldn't seal properly around them.
I honestly don't think that will be an issue. On the one I'm holding in my hand, the embossed marks start 5cm (2") below the rim. That's double the thickness of the head I'll be pressing into it. Even if the head were to reach that far in, I am fairly certain the expanding wood would conform to the shape of the can. If you wanted to be extra sure, you could orient the grain of your head tangent to the location of the marks, so that it expands more in that direction.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Rumblepants »

Hi Badmo,

I'm in Australia and looking to build a couple of barrels. I Have just got my hands on an ex Markers Mark 200L barrel. What do you think of cutting down barrel heads and using them on a bain marie?

I have found Winco bain marie inserts on Amazon that will ship to Australia.

Love to get your input on my plan.

Cheers
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by The Baker »

I have found Winco bain marie inserts on Amazon that will ship to Australia.

Some also available at Amazon Australia.
You would have to compare prices and include shipping, if charged.

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Knife_man »

dovregubben wrote: Sun Sep 11, 2022 9:44 pm I honestly don't think that will be an issue. On the one I'm holding in my hand, the embossed marks start 5cm (2") below the rim. That's double the thickness of the head I'll be pressing into it. Even if the head were to reach that far in, I am fairly certain the expanding wood would conform to the shape of the can. If you wanted to be extra sure, you could orient the grain of your head tangent to the location of the marks, so that it expands more in that direction.
Looks a lot less from the pictures , that's why I dislike buying stuff like this online 🙄.

ATM I've still got to fill my baby one and see how it gets on with spirit inside but certainly will have another look at those when I'm ready to make a "big" one. Will be very interested to hear how you get on with yours.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

Rumblepants wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 12:46 am Hi Badmo,

I'm in Australia and looking to build a couple of barrels. I Have just got my hands on an ex Markers Mark 200L barrel. What do you think of cutting down barrel heads and using them on a bain marie?

I have found Winco bain marie inserts on Amazon that will ship to Australia.

Love to get your input on my plan.

Cheers
Not Badmo, but old barrel wood is what I have been using and so far it is working well. I have used the heads from a 5 gal micro distillery barrel - once used for bourbon. And I used the staves from a home depot flower planter which was a who knows how old Jack Daniels barrel. Staves are a bit harder to work with as they are wide in the middle and narrower at the end. They also have the curve with them but with the use of beeswax between them they have sealed up.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by squigglefunk »

how do you guys find the grade of stainless steel for these "barrels"? most of the bain marie ads do not list if it is 304 or 316 stainless. I would think you want the 316 for long term storage with minimal corrosion.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by dovregubben »

Knife_man wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 7:52 am Looks a lot less from the pictures , that's why I dislike buying stuff like this online 🙄.
My girlfriend has a 6 qt Instant Pot. That's actually what gave me the idea. She bought a second liner, so she can cook two dishes back to back. I didn't look at them until now, but they're different.
image.png
The one that came with her Instant Pot (left) has two marks for 1/2 full and 2/3 full. The two 8 qt liners (right) have the same marks. The extra pot (center) has more specific marks. They start about 2 cm from the rim. Those seem to be the same marks the inserts on AliExpress have. In fact, upon inspection, eight of the pictures on AliExpress are exactly the same insert, they just slapped different dimensions on the pictures. If you look closely, you can see marks for 4, 6, 8, and 10 cups, just like the Instant Pot 6 qt insert. So... yeah... Who knows what any of the other inserts on AliExpress look like? :problem: But again, I don't think they would pose a problem for installing or sealing the head. I think wood is pliable enough to squeeze past them, and it would conform to their shape when it swells. Hell, a little texture on the inside of the can might even hold the head in place better?

I could make a BadMo barrel out of my girlfriend's 6 qt Instant Pot liner, to see if I run into any problems with the marks, but something tells me she might not go for that idea. :P
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by higgins »

I fitted a barrel head into my Winco 8.25 bain-marie yesterday, but didn't insert it. This head was a toasted but uncharred 'prototype' used to develop my jigs and processes. It was made from rejected merains (uneven joints, splits), and I'll use it as a template for the 4 blanks I have to make good heads.
BadmoClone1.png
BadmoClone2.png
outside
inside

I'm still waiting for my reamer to taper the bunghole.

Questions for Ben:
  • To get around the low SA/V ratio (around 30 or so if you put 1.6 gal into it) I was thinking of adding 1 or 2 toasted/charred sticks (5/8 x 5/8 x 5) before inserting the head. 2 sticks would add about 25 sq in, and would make it around 45 sq in/gal (but would not increase the area of wood exposed to air). Then after a bourbon is done it should still work fine for a single malt. I figure if I want to use one for a single malt on its first use, I'll do a medium toast with a char level 1.
  • My spigots measure 0.620" dia. I have a 5/8" forstner bit, and the spigot fits well, but goes in easily without needing force and it isn't as snug as you show in your video. I expect that tightening it with the nut on the back will be good enough until the wood swells to seal.

    What is your take on these?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Rumblepants »

The Baker wrote: Mon Sep 12, 2022 6:38 am I have found Winco bain marie inserts on Amazon that will ship to Australia.

Some also available at Amazon Australia.
You would have to compare prices and include shipping, if charged.

Geoff
Can you shoot me a link. I could only find the ones located in the US. They had free shipping though so thats somthing,
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Rumblepants »

Apologies if this has already been discussed. But would it be possible to use something like this

https://www.nisbets.com.au/bolero-stain ... 2EQAvD_BwE

The sides are straight and not tapered would that cause an issue with getting a tight seal on the head?

Cheers
Rumble
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