The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by MichiganCornhusker »

Congrats, BadMo, I’m super happy with mine!
#239 and #254 currently hold a rye’d bourbon. :thumbup:
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Amorphous »

I see some are back in stock (yay!) I sent an email requesting a shipping quote to the Great White North (or Sumas)!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Deplorable »

BadMo,
How many uses before you're considering your barrels "spent" or neutral? Have you reused any to the point where they're just a neutral aging vessel yet?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator »

Deplorable wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 3:50 pm BadMo,
How many uses before you're considering your barrels "spent" or neutral? Have you reused any to the point where they're just a neutral aging vessel yet?
No idea. I’ve actually never emptied and refilled any. Even when I have put spirits which typically call for a lighter wood contribution into my barrels, such as rum and brandy, I just totally love the bolder results. If I was still producing spirit at the rate I was years ago I would certainly try second-use and solera strategies. But I’m too damn busy making barrels to make spirits. :)

I can’t see a reason that they would behave any differently than their bigger cousins. I think if you find a reputable source of information about big barrels that addresses your question you can assume the same will be true of your badmotivator barrel.

Cheers!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by bcook608 »

BadMo, are you considering offering reconditioning services or an exchange system at all? Where people can send you their used barrel for a new face if they find that they aren't getting the same flavor enhancement they started with? Just a thought.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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bcook608 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 pm BadMo, are you considering offering reconditioning services or an exchange system at all? Where people can send you their used barrel for a new face if they find that they aren't getting the same flavor enhancement they started with? Just a thought.
Good question. Not really. When you compare the cost for a new barrel to the price I would have to charge for the service, they are so similar that it wouldn’t make much sense.

New barrel: materials, labor, shipping one way.
Recondition barrel: wood only, more labor, shipping two ways.

Since labor > materials anyway, and the labor would be greater for a recondition than a new barrel (head removal, cutting spigot free, cleaning) it doesn’t really pencil out.

Hope that makes sense.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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Badmotivator wrote: Sat Apr 02, 2022 7:48 am
bcook608 wrote: Fri Apr 01, 2022 9:24 pm BadMo, are you considering offering reconditioning services or an exchange system at all? Where people can send you their used barrel for a new face if they find that they aren't getting the same flavor enhancement they started with? Just a thought.
Good question. Not really. When you compare the cost for a new barrel to the price I would have to charge for the service, they are so similar that it wouldn’t make much sense.

New barrel: materials, labor, shipping one way.
Recondition barrel: wood only, more labor, shipping two ways.

Since labor > materials anyway, and the labor would be greater for a recondition than a new barrel (head removal, cutting spigot free, cleaning) it doesn’t really pencil out.

Hope that makes sense.
That totally makes sense! Didn't know if you'd thought of it or not so I was throwing it out there. I may be getting myself a couple of your barrels or at least attempting to make one or 2 in the near future. These are great!
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CanadianIceman »

Hi Badmotivator. This is an interesting idea. I will attempt to make a few of these. Would you happen to know the wall thickness of the SS Bain Marie you use? I can get my hands on some cheap ones at 0.8mm. Does it even matter?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Rrmuf »

I doubt it matters: Thinner might be better for making the oak stave to stainless joint a bit more forgiving.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Just ordered a medium toast char #3.

Not sure what the flavor impact will be from this combo, but I’m sure it’ll be good for the Rye’d bourbon heading it’s way. I won’t be able to fill it right away, so I may have to do the unthinkable and use some water with a barrel conditioning tablet or some vodka. I was thinking the water would pull less flavor from the oak.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Deplorable »

BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:48 am Just ordered a medium toast char #3.

Not sure what the flavor impact will be from this combo, but I’m sure it’ll be good for the Rye’d bourbon heading it’s way. I won’t be able to fill it right away, so I may have to do the unthinkable and use some water with a barrel conditioning tablet or some vodka. I was thinking the water would pull less flavor from the oak.
Im sure it will be fine for while if you keep in a cool, dark location until you fill it. The nice thing about them is you can gradually wet the wood a bit at a time if needed by laying it on its side for a while, then tipping it up on the bottom. Then back on its side.
I filled mine with a 21% Rye bourbon. Filled it within a half inch of the wood and drive the bung in. Ive got another 2 quarts in glass on sticks to top it off as I taste from it.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Deplorable wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 12:12 pm
BrewinBrian44 wrote: Sat Apr 09, 2022 11:48 am Just ordered a medium toast char #3.

Not sure what the flavor impact will be from this combo, but I’m sure it’ll be good for the Rye’d bourbon heading it’s way. I won’t be able to fill it right away, so I may have to do the unthinkable and use some water with a barrel conditioning tablet or some vodka. I was thinking the water would pull less flavor from the oak.
Im sure it will be fine for while if you keep in a cool, dark location until you fill it. The nice thing about them is you can gradually wet the wood a bit at a time if needed by laying it on its side for a while, then tipping it up on the bottom. Then back on its side.
I filled mine with a 21% Rye bourbon. Filled it within a half inch of the wood and drive the bung in. Ive got another 2 quarts in glass on sticks to top it off as I taste from it.
Thanks for the tips Deplorable! I was planning on leaving it in the basement closet so that should help. It stays decently humid down there in the summer too.

Not a bad idea leaving some new make with sticks off to the side to top up.

The thing that’s really enticing about these barrels is not having to commit to something you’re on the fence about for filling a larger barrel. 5 gallons is a major commitment of time and energy, I’ll be living it for the next couple months making enough HBB to refill a 5gal Gibbs. Smaller barrels don’t give you proper aging time without over oaking, so these Badmo’s solve the problem. I can see them becoming a gold standard for home distillers that don’t have the time or resources to go with larger barrels.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Deplorable »

I hear ya. Im in the middle of a 5G HBB project myself. The 2nd barrel fill this season. First was all corn in a 2nd fill barrel. Once I get this barrel filled, I need to start working on another 5 gallons of single malt to refill my first barrel. I could have made a few different things for more variety, but opted to make use of the 2nd barrel I had. Then bought the Badmo for my Rye. One taste of the first strip of HBB and I decided I needed a NEW 5G barrel of it.
More rye will have to wait now.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Hahaha you sure got the stillin’ bug! This hobby does become an obsession.

My wife had no idea gifting me a T500 would turn into this! Didn’t take long before I bought a huge kettle and made a keg boiler and started assembling different column setups.

Wish I knew about these Badmo’s early on! I’d probably have 10 of them by now.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Deplorable »

Yeah, didnt take long for me to go all in. I filled my first barrel before Id been at it 6 months. Having a glass of that right now. :ebiggrin:
If I like the results I get from this BadMo, I'll be buying more. I like the idea of making a single mash and filling a barrel and then moving on to something else. You can guild up a good variety pretty quickly doing that. Before you know it you have half a dozen lined up on the backbar. :D
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CanadianIceman »

20220415_173448.jpg

I picked up some seasoned white oak scraps from a local cooper. Gotta start building theses badmo heads
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator »

CanadianIceman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:31 pm 20220415_173448.jpg
I picked up some seasoned white oak scraps from a local cooper. Gotta start building theses badmo heads
Do it man!

Don’t hesitate to get in touch with me (here or through my website) if you get stumped.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by BrewinBrian44 »

Just received my medium toast char #3 yesterday. Wow I can attest to the quality. Can’t wait to use it! Glad you’re making these things for us Badmotivator! I’m sure it’ll be one of many I order.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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Badmotivator wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 10:40 pm
CanadianIceman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:31 pm 20220415_173448.jpg
I picked up some seasoned white oak scraps from a local cooper. Gotta start building theses badmo heads
Do it man!

Don’t hesitate to get in touch with me (here or through my website) if you get stumped.
Thanks 4 the offer badmo. I sure will if i see problems. On the surface the project looks fairly achievable if you have access to the tools and a bit of woodworking skills. I'll do them slowly while at work, on company time, so it may be a while before i have a pic of a finished one. I'm only wondering how to make and what material to use for the bung.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

CanadianIceman wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:23 am . I'm only wondering how to make and what material to use for the bung.
On the ones I have made I just used a half inch stainless steel bolt. that way I didn't need to get a tapered hole and tapered bung to seal it.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by OtisT »

CanadianIceman wrote: Fri Apr 15, 2022 6:31 pm 20220415_173448.jpg
I picked up some seasoned white oak scraps from a local cooper. Gotta start building theses badmo heads
They said those boards were seasoned?
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by CanadianIceman »

Yes Otis.. some have been worked on so the weathering is gone but a lot of them are grey, brown with fungus and weathering.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

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CanadianIceman wrote: Sat Apr 16, 2022 6:23 am On the surface the project looks fairly achievable if you have access to the tools and a bit of woodworking skills. I'll do them slowly while at work, on company time, so it may be a while before i have a pic of a finished one. I'm only wondering how to make and what material to use for the bung.
Yep. It’s achievable. When I look back at my first barrels I marvel at how imprecise they were, and yet they still succeeded. The oldest ones were a mess on their faces after years of seepage left wood-sugar stains and tracks of barrel candy, but still ended up holding plenty of spirit. But as I got rounder and smoother circles, better joints, added beeswax for insurance, and dialed in the right snug fit, they got even better. And you probably don’t have to make all of the mistakes I did. :)

Otis’ bung bolts is a great solution. If you’d prefer an oak bung, my videos show the two specialty tools I use to make them. (Lee Valley “standard tapered reamer” makes the bunghole, Lee Valley “tapered tenon cutter” makes the bung.) If you want to just pick up the reamer I can supply you with bungs. Poplar is also a good bung material.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hawkwing »

Would tongue and groove work or would it swell and split? Just wondering if I could use some extra unfinished white oak flooring I have to make a cap. I was considering making a whole barrel but this seems a lot easier. I'm wondering if I'd have to cut off the tongue and groove. I don't know where or if I could get air dried oak where I'm at.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by subbrew »

I made one with the head of a 5 gallon black swan barrel and the boards from that were tongue and grooved. Made it much easier.

BUT, flooring may have been treated and certainly has not been aged/seasoned in the weather so to use it "fresh" would give a lot of tannin to your drink.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hawkwing »

Glad to hear that tongue and groove can work.

This flooring wasn't treated. It was unfinished and just kiln dried. I've thought about that claim about aged/weathered vs kiln dried and I'm not sure I buy it. So what if it's been weathered. Once it's been planed, cut, etc. it's back down to new bare wood. I doubt there is a big difference. Especially if the surface is charred. I won't if it's just an untested hypothesis. Anyways I've cut some strips and charred them and I'm happy with the results. I'm not sure where I could get any oak that is weathered. They don't exactly grow here.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by Badmotivator »

hawkwing wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:39 pm Glad to hear that tongue and groove can work.

This flooring wasn't treated. It was unfinished and just kiln dried. I've thought about that claim about aged/weathered vs kiln dried and I'm not sure I buy it. So what if it's been weathered. Once it's been planed, cut, etc. it's back down to new bare wood. I doubt there is a big difference. Especially if the surface is charred. I won't if it's just an untested hypothesis. Anyways I've cut some strips and charred them and I'm happy with the results. I'm not sure where I could get any oak that is weathered. They don't exactly grow here.
I appreciate your skepticism, truly. It’s a healthy instinct.

Two items for your consideration: 1) I have made barrels with both weathered and Un-weathered oak, both of them “cleaned up” before use in the planer or equivalent. The unweathered oak barrels produced spirit which is undrinkably tannic. 2) No coopers make barrels with unweathered oak.

While charring does eliminate tannin, it only does so in the charred layer (thin) and to some degree in the toasted layer behind it that the charring causes (also thin). But tannin is somewhat mobile in the wood over time, so the high tannin content remaining in the interior of your stick, if it’s thick enough to have an interior, will eventually make its way into your spirit. This might not be a problem in a sticks-in-a-jar situation, if the stick has no significant “interior” or if you don’t leave the spirit in there very long. But for long-term aging in a barrel unmodified and unreduced tannin is totally an issue.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by NormandieStill »

hawkwing wrote: Sun Apr 17, 2022 6:39 pm Glad to hear that tongue and groove can work.

This flooring wasn't treated. It was unfinished and just kiln dried. I've thought about that claim about aged/weathered vs kiln dried and I'm not sure I buy it. So what if it's been weathered. Once it's been planed, cut, etc. it's back down to new bare wood. I doubt there is a big difference. Especially if the surface is charred. I won't if it's just an untested hypothesis. Anyways I've cut some strips and charred them and I'm happy with the results. I'm not sure where I could get any oak that is weathered. They don't exactly grow here.
If you already have some oak, you can weather it yourself. Take your kiln-dried wood outside (not on a surface that will stain as you're going to drip tannins everywhere!) and water it. I would recommend watering it daily for a while and then at least every couple of days. As long as you don't immerse it you won't have a dramatic effect on the humidity level of the wood, but you will wash at least some of the tannins out. If possible you want it to dry out between waterings, so depending on your climate you might manage to soak it more than once a day or only once every few days. Keep going for as long as you have patience.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by hawkwing »

I was also thinking the swelling soak might be enough. Or possibly do shorter aging for the first spirit.
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Re: The Badmotivator Bain-Marie and Oak Barrel

Post by WhiskeyRebellion »

ordered one today, heavy toast char 3.
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